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Will Egolf

bluedevils1 said:
Sorry, I got my info wrong. He came back stronger than ever his soph season of college then was drafted by the Wizards and ended up on the Celtics. So he was "never quite the same" because he was much better.
Click to expand...

Look, all I ever said was that it's very difficult to come back 100% from ACL surgery....it never ceases to amaze me when I make a statement like this, someone digs out one possible example from 1989 and claims they have proved me wrong!!
(like the time I said I couldn't recall a mid-major team that was led by mostly freshmen and some guy came up with Michigan, Chris Webber, and the "Fab Four"...
too bad Michigan isn't a midmajor and that was nearly two decades ago, thus more proving it's scarce not common.

anyway......Re: Bill Walker
certainly many would refute this as Bill Walker was a 5-Star recruit and ranked as the #7 rated player in the entire nation
in his senior year of high school..........
http://rutgers.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?ra_key=1611

Some had him as high as #2 rated but most sites had him in the top 5 or so.

He ended up being a good college player but nowhere near what a 5-Star rating and Top 5-10 ranking would have indicated.
Remember, many of the top 10 kids used to go right to the NBA but now after a year of college like Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, they are still lottery picks.

In fact, in that ranking I gave a link to above, every other one of the Top 10 in that ranking and even in the top 15 either went in the lottery, or in the 1st Rd. or in the very early 2nd Rd.

BUT---Bill Walker went with pick 47...late in the 2nd round...
so are the NBA people just stupid or is their assessment that his stock had fallen significantly after he returned from the ACL surgery.
I think it is obvious the fact is that he wasn't the same player as he was before he had the surgery and was ranked as top 5-10 in the nation.
Similarly, of all those guys who are in the NBA...most are having an impact, but Bill Walker sure isn't --- he's been sent to the NBA Development league!!



But my challenge still stands...and you seem unwilling to try to take it on...
Certainly Bill Walker doesn't fit the bill as he isn't even playing in the NBA....
find and name a player in virtually any men's sport who was an All Star, a POY, or at the TOP of his game he had ACL surgery.
you might be able to, but I haven't.....
It's even rare in the women's game even though the male's game uses so much power, strength, and quick lateral moves and cuts, that women don't perform so much.
 
tornado said:
Look, all I ever said was that it's very difficult to come back 100% from ACL surgery....it never ceases to amaze me when I make a statement like this, someone digs out one possible example from 1989 and claims they have proved me wrong!!
(like the time I said I couldn't recall a mid-major team that was led by mostly freshmen and some guy came up with Michigan, Chris Webber, and the "Fab Four"...
too bad Michigan isn't a midmajor and that was nearly two decades ago, thus more proving it's scarce not common.

anyway......Re: Bill Walker
certainly many would refute this as Bill Walker was a 5-Star recruit and ranked as the #7 rated player in the entire nation
in his senior year of high school..........
http://rutgers.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?ra_key=1611

Some had him as high as #2 rated but most sites had him in the top 5 or so.

He ended up being a good college player but nowhere near what a 5-Star rating and Top 5-10 ranking would have indicated.
Remember, many of the top 10 kids used to go right to the NBA but now after a year of college like Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, they are still lottery picks.

In fact, in that ranking I gave a link to above, every other one of the Top 10 in that ranking and even in the top 15 either went in the lottery, or in the 1st Rd. or in the very early 2nd Rd.

BUT---Bill Walker went with pick 47...late in the 2nd round...
so are the NBA people just stupid or is their assessment that his stock had fallen significantly after he returned from the ACL surgery.
I think it is obvious the fact is that he wasn't the same player as he was before he had the surgery and was ranked as top 5-10 in the nation.
Similarly, of all those guys who are in the NBA...most are having an impact, but Bill Walker sure isn't --- he's been sent to the NBA Development league!!



But my challenge still stands...and you seem unwilling to try to take it on...
Certainly Bill Walker doesn't fit the bioll as he isn't even playing in the NBA....
find and name a player in virtually any men's sport who was an All Star, a POY, or at the TOP of his sport after he had ACL surgery.
you might be able to, but I haven't.....
It's even rare in the women's game even though the men's game uses so much power, strength, and quick lateral moves and cuts, that women don't perform so much.
Click to expand...

Ron Harper, Jamal Crawford, Danny Manning, Bob Lanier, Bernard King, Amare Stoudemire minus Jamal Crawford. And although you are definitely right about Bill Walker not doing well / being in the NBA, the reason was mainly a size issue and not performance issue - he is undersized at 6'6'' for a big guy but he is not strong as a small forward. I don't know if the ACL injury had that much to do with this, but he drastically improved after his freshman year in college and put up legit NBA numbers and that is why he even got drafted in the first place. Just because he is predicted as an amazing player out of high school means nothing. He should have stayed another year and worked on a few facets of his game. This is why he went to the NBDL. Even ranked as the top 5 high school seniors obviously doesn't mean a top 5 pick in the NBA if he could have gone and it doesn't mean he will exceed at the NBA level.
 
I don't know if it was intended, but you are only strengthening tornado's argument.
Most of the players you listed were never close to the same player after they returned from knee surgery.
Ron Harper was a star before his surgery, but became a good backup player who could no longer jump. From his bio on Wikipedia it says, "While with the Clippers Harper sustained a knee injury which robbed him of much of his speed and jumping ability....he reinvented himself as a defender and jump shooter"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Harper
Danny Manning was also a star, and would have been a HOF player in the NBA if not for his knee injuries. He recovered pretty well after his first surgery in 1989, but that was a much simpler arthroscopic surgery. He ended up with 2 more knee operations a few years later, and was never close to the same player. He bounced around with several teams as a backup before retiring early because of the knees.--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Manning
Bernard King- this is the easiest case to point to. King was the best player in the NBA, but lost much of his physical abilities after his knee surgery. Here is what his bio says--"
At the peak of his career, however, King suffered a devastating knee injury - a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee, while planting his leg before jumping, against the then-Kansas City Kings in Kansas City, Missouri on March 23, 1985. It required major reconstruction, causing King to miss all of the 1985-86 season and denying him his once explosiveness to the basket....it was clear that King's explosiveness was diminished, and this prompted the New York Knicks to release him at the end of the 1987 season.... knee problems forced Bernard King into retirement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_King
Bob Lanier- Lanier initially injured his ACL in college. He recovered pretty well, but nonetheless was never able to jump after that, and always wore a brace. It lead to a lifetime of more knee trouble, and his career was cut short- he had 7 more knee operations, mostly because of cartilage damage.
Amare Stoudamire still has yet to prove he is the same player as he was before his knee surgery.
 
and even Candace Parker has said and observers note she isn't as mobile since her surgery, but she dominates just as much because she is good.
But to use Candace Parker to try to strengthen the argument that I CLEARLY said was about the MEN's game, again helps to show that there aren't many examples...
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=106427&highlight=any+men%27s+sport#post106427

The techniques nowadays do allow most people to recover fully and regain full activity, but "most people" and are not top caliber athletes.
Even most athletes can recover fully enough to resume playing in their sport....that's not the point of this argument....
I agree they can come back and play, but will they be as good as they were before or as good as they would have been without the injury?
That's the question that is more subjective than objective....and you are entitled to your opinion, although you still haven't found an example of anyone who did.
Coming up with an example like Bob Lanier or Bernard King only supports my contention...as they were never the same after surgery, and even if they were
you had to go back decades to find such an example..
 
tornado said:
and even Candace Parker has said and observers note she isn't as mobile since her surgery, but she dominates just as much because she is good.
But to use Candace Parker to try to strengthen the argument that I CLEARLY said was about the MEN's game, again helps to show that there aren't many examples...
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=106427&highlight=any+men%27s+sport#post106427

The techniques nowadays do allow most people to recover fully and regain full activity, but "most people" and are not top caliber athletes.
Even most athletes can recover fully enough to resume playing in their sport....that's not the point of this argument....
I agree they can come back and play, but will they be as good as they were before or as good as they would have been without the injury?
That's the question that is more subjective than objective....and you are entitled to your opinion, although you still haven't found an example of anyone who did.
Coming up with an example like Bob Lanier or Bernard King only supports my contention...as they were never the same after surgery, and even if they were
you had to go back decades to find such an example..
Click to expand...


"(What type of production can we expect from Kansas State's Bill Walker, who is recovering from an ACL tear, in 2007-08? Recent history tells us just as good, if not better, than before his injury. Here's a look at how six top college players over the past couple of years fared in the season before or during their ACL tear, along with how they did in their first season back in action.
Player PPG before PPG After
Leon Powe, Cal 15.1 20.5
D.J. Strawberry, Maryland 7.1 10.3
Marcelus Kemp, Nevada 4.6 15.0
Carl Landry, Purdue 18.2 18.9
David Teague, Purdue 14.0 14.3
Curtis Sumpter, Villanova 15.3 17.4 "

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/...asp?CID=705043

Bill Walker 9.7 16.1

Recent, not decades, maybe not NBA all stars, but the point is that they got better. I can't think of many top athletes who have had the surgery in the last few years, so it is hard to say how their performance is affected. Jamal Crawford and Amare Stoudemire are both putting up all-star numbers this year after having the surgery.
 
tornado said:
and even Candace Parker has said and observers note she isn't as mobile since her surgery, but she dominates just as much because she is good.
But to use Candace Parker to try to strengthen the argument that I CLEARLY said was about the MEN's game, again helps to show that there aren't many examples...
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=106427&highlight=any+men's+sport#post106427

The techniques nowadays do allow most people to recover fully and regain full activity, but "most people" and are not top caliber athletes.
Even most athletes can recover fully enough to resume playing in their sport....that's not the point of this argument....
I agree they can come back and play, but will they be as good as they were before or as good as they would have been without the injury?
That's the question that is more subjective than objective....and you are entitled to your opinion, although you still haven't found an example of anyone who did.
Coming up with an example like Bob Lanier or Bernard King only supports my contention...as they were never the same after surgery, and even if they were
you had to go back decades to find such an example..
Click to expand...

Cool. Not pretending to be a doctor, just wondering. Candace seems like she's recovered quite well. I don't watch enough women's basketball to know if she's as mobile as she used to be.
 
maybe....who knows....
she was so good that even if she's lost a step or is off 5%, she's still the best player in her sport.

But as I had said elsewhere, if women actually try to make the cuts and maneuvers that men do at top speed, they tear their ACL's at a rate that is as high as 5-6 times as much as men do.
http://www.activexamerica.com/glucosamine/acl-tears.php

thus most women in their sports DON'T make those moves nor do they rely on those talents.
Thus women can use their size, strength, and finesse even after ACL surgery.

BUT--- even so....she is one lone example among hundreds of talented women who have torn their ACL's that were completely unable to make a comeback.
She is truly exceptional and by her rarity even support the arguement further.
 
bluedevils1 said:
"(What type of production can we expect from Kansas State's Bill Walker, who is recovering from an ACL tear, in 2007-08? Recent history tells us just as good, if not better, than before his injury. Here's a look at how six top college players over the past couple of years fared in the season before or during their ACL tear, along with how they did in their first season back in action.
Player PPG before PPG After
Leon Powe, Cal 15.1 20.5
D.J. Strawberry, Maryland 7.1 10.3
Marcelus Kemp, Nevada 4.6 15.0
Carl Landry, Purdue 18.2 18.9
David Teague, Purdue 14.0 14.3
Curtis Sumpter, Villanova 15.3 17.4 "

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/...asp?CID=705043

Bill Walker 9.7 16.1

Recent, not decades, maybe not NBA all stars, but the point is that they got better. I can't think of many top athletes who have had the surgery in the last few years, so it is hard to say how their performance is affected. Jamal Crawford and Amare Stoudemire are both putting up all-star numbers this year after having the surgery.
Click to expand...

I am not sure if it is the same argument (ACL vs Tommy John surgery), but I have heard of sports doc (radio interview) complaining that parents, sadly, want them to do an unessary tommy john surgery on their son because the (parents) think the surgery will help their son increase their pitching speed. The doc says no, the surgery does not make the arm better, the rehab after the surgery makes the arm better (by evenly strengthing all arm muscles). Their kid would do better if the kid went on the rehab (better training) with no surgery. Then the parent seaks out another doc that eventually does the surgery....

In the same vein, players might get better after ACL because of better rehab/training perhaps on rehab those better players spent more time on better overall workouts and shooting drills than just agility?
 
Da Coach said:
I don't know if it was intended, but you are only strengthening tornado's argument.
Most of the players you listed were never close to the same player after they returned from knee surgery.
Ron Harper was a star before his surgery, but became a good backup player who could no longer jump. From his bio on Wikipedia it says, "While with the Clippers Harper sustained a knee injury which robbed him of much of his speed and jumping ability....he reinvented himself as a defender and jump shooter"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Harper
Danny Manning was also a star, and would have been a HOF player in the NBA if not for his knee injuries. He recovered pretty well after his first surgery in 1989, but that was a much simpler arthroscopic surgery. He ended up with 2 more knee operations a few years later, and was never close to the same player. He bounced around with several teams as a backup before retiring early because of the knees.--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Manning
Bernard King- this is the easiest case to point to. King was the best player in the NBA, but lost much of his physical abilities after his knee surgery. Here is what his bio says--"
At the peak of his career, however, King suffered a devastating knee injury - a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee, while planting his leg before jumping, against the then-Kansas City Kings in Kansas City, Missouri on March 23, 1985. It required major reconstruction, causing King to miss all of the 1985-86 season and denying him his once explosiveness to the basket....it was clear that King's explosiveness was diminished, and this prompted the New York Knicks to release him at the end of the 1987 season.... knee problems forced Bernard King into retirement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_King
Bob Lanier- Lanier initially injured his ACL in college. He recovered pretty well, but nonetheless was never able to jump after that, and always wore a brace. It lead to a lifetime of more knee trouble, and his career was cut short- he had 7 more knee operations, mostly because of cartilage damage.
Amare Stoudamire still has yet to prove he is the same player as he was before his knee surgery.
Click to expand...


Bob Lanier - played for 14 years in the NBA, nearly 20,000 points, was at the top of his game for about the first 10 years even after the surgery, then the other operations and age started to affect him slowly. So he was better for many years after the surgery. He is also in the Hall of Fame, after having ACL surgery.

Bernard King - lost his explosiveness and was not as good after, although still averaged over 22 points a game the next 5 years.

Ron Harper - was not as good after.

Danny Manning - was better after his ACL injury rookie year. He came back and became an all-star and was one of the NBA's best for about 6 seasons. His career was shortened only because of multiple operations that finally took their toll. But the point was, he was the player he was in college even after his ACL surgery, and he improved for years.

Amare Stoudemire - the season after his surgery, played 82 games, but it took him awhile to get back where he was. He averaged 20 ppg Last season, averaged over 25 points and 9 rebounds a game and was again at the top of his game. This season, is leading his team in scoring and shows the same skill set he had before the surgery. It also seems like he hasn't really lost any explosiveness, which is surprising. He might not be "better", but he is exactly at the same level as before the surgery. But I agree that it is still early. But he is at two going on three all-star seasons after the surgery.
 
I agree, anyone can get better...sometimes a whole lot better...
so if a guy gets better after knee surgery how would be know if maybe it was because the entire rest of the guy got better while the knee remained worse?

Regardless....as stated, the large majority of complete ACL tears result in careers being ended. Only a few at the very top of their sport can make a comeback.......and most are never quite the same.

"I have interviewed too many players who have torn ACLs, and
they almost all say that the rehab was the hardest thing they’ve ever done –
and though few will admit it, that knee is never quite the same. It also takes
a lot longer to recover than players and trainers like to admit. Sure, the
Cybex machine may say the knee is just as strong as ever after a few
months, but it takes months more for muscle memory to settle in, months
more for full flexibility and rotation to return, months more for the pain-
drenched nerves to recover completely."
http://fullcourt.scout.com/a.z?s=42...dURL=http://fullcourt.scout.com/2/721458.html
 
tornado said:
I agree, anyone can get better...sometimes a whole lot better...
so if a guy gets better after knee surgery how would be know if maybe it was because the entire rest of the guy got better while the knee remained worse?

Regardless....as stated, the large majority of complete ACL tears result in careers being ended. Only a few at the very top of their sport can make a comeback.......and most are never quite the same.

"I have interviewed too many players who have torn ACLs, and
they almost all say that the rehab was the hardest thing they??™ve ever done ??“
and though few will admit it, that knee is never quite the same. It also takes
a lot longer to recover than players and trainers like to admit. Sure, the
Cybex machine may say the knee is just as strong as ever after a few
months, but it takes months more for muscle memory to settle in, months
more for full flexibility and rotation to return, months more for the pain-
drenched nerves to recover completely."
http://fullcourt.scout.com/a.z?s=42...dURL=http://fullcourt.scout.com/2/721458.html
Click to expand...

Maybe we should ask the knee, haha. I think the original argument was that the player was better. I never said a majority of players were better or anything like that, only a list of a bunch of players in recent years who have done better. My point is that it seems like it is more common that players come back just as well, if not better, after the surgery. I believe you 100% that it is rare. I only think it is becoming less rare.
 
tornado said:
I challenged either you or someone to find a top caliber athlete who ever got back to where he was or who became "All Star" caliber after ACL repair.
Click to expand...


bluedevils1 said:
Here's a look at how six top college players over the past couple of years fared in the season before or during their ACL tear, along with how they did in their first season back in action.
Player PPG before PPG After
Leon Powe, Cal 15.1 20.5
D.J. Strawberry, Maryland 7.1 10.3
Marcelus Kemp, Nevada 4.6 15.0
Carl Landry, Purdue 18.2 18.9
David Teague, Purdue 14.0 14.3
Curtis Sumpter, Villanova 15.3 17.4 "

Jamal Crawford and Amare Stoudemire are both putting up all-star numbers this year after having the surgery.
Click to expand...

Nice job bluedevils. :-D
 
hmmm...all those stats are for a before and after season that was two years's span....
In other words...
Strawberry's stats mean he only scored 3 ppg more in his 3rd college year than he did in his freshman season...same for those other guys.
But wouldn't you fully expect most talented freshmen who score 7ppg to hit 10ppg by their junior season??
...all those guys were pegged as possible superstars and top NBA prospects, and their knee surgery pretty much destroyed that possibility for them.

and I think you have to be careful including all those guys you have included....as some clearly had some far lesser injury and did not have a complete rupture of their ACL.

Clearly from these articles you can see that regardless of what is reported elsewhere, Amare Stoudamire's own orthopedic surgeon describes his injury as
"Suns team physician Thomas Carter, who performed the surgery,
has said there is no right knee defect like what was diagnosed before
an October scope on Stoudemire's left knee. That lesion was larger
than expected, prompting a microfracture procedure."

so he had microfracture surgery NOT ACL reconstruction and it was repaired with arthroscopic surgery.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/suns/2006-04-05-stoudemire-surgery_x.htm
http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/2007/10/amare-stoudemir.html
I am also unable to confirm that Crawford suffered a complete ACL rupture, as not all ACL surgery is the same.
Partial tears are a whole lot less complicated and do NOT require major reconstruction as Will Egolf's knee did.
 
tornado said:
hmmm...all those stats are for a before and after season that was two years's span....
In other words...
Strawberry's stats mean he only scored 3 ppg more in his 3rd college year than he did in his freshman season...same for those other guys.
But wouldn't you fully expect most talented freshmen who score 7ppg to hit 10ppg by their junior season??
...all those guys were pegged as possible superstars and top NBA prospects, and their knee surgery pretty much destroyed that possibility for them.

and I think you have to be careful including all those guys you have included....as some clearly had some far lesser injury and did not have a complete rupture of their ACL.

Clearly from these articles you can see that regardless of what is reported elsewhere, Amare Stoudamire's own orthopedic surgeon describes his injury as
"Suns team physician Thomas Carter, who performed the surgery,
has said there is no right knee defect like what was diagnosed before
an October scope on Stoudemire's left knee. That lesion was larger
than expected, prompting a microfracture procedure."

so he had microfracture surgery NOT ACL reconstruction and it was repaired with arthroscopic surgery.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/suns/2006-04-05-stoudemire-surgery_x.htm
http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/2007/10/amare-stoudemir.html
I am also unable to confirm that Crawford suffered a complete ACL rupture, as not all ACL surgery is the same.
Partial tears are a whole lot less complicated and do NOT require major reconstruction as Will Egolf's knee did.
Click to expand...

So do we expect Will Egolf to get 8-10 ppg or more next year and become the dominant center that we need, because by that time, he should naturally be a better player? Saying that isn't an improvement is pretty subjective, just like with the other guys I mentioned. All of them "improved", whether it was a small jump or large (Kemp, Powe). There is so more I could argue but I am tired of it. I've already made my point, even if it is in vain.
 
I am pulling for Will to make a tremendous, full recovery, but it is not going to be easy.
He will be awarded a medical hardship and come back next year as s sophomore with 3 full seasons remaining.
 
I am pulling for Will to make a complete recovery as well. Being an NFL fan, I'll use Willis Mcgahee and Edgerrin James as examples for this thread. Certainly Mcgahee recovered and had some productive seasons in the NFL, but I dont think that he is as good as he was at the "U". Not counting this year, James has been productive since his comeback from an ACL injury in 2001.

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/ortho/finebergnews.html

"The fact is no one can say for sure if he will be the same player he was. Ask medical experts if McGahee can come back, and they answer along the lines of, "Yes, but . . . "

Edgerrin James stats:

http://www.nfl.com/players/edgerrinjames/careerstats?id=JAM177189
 
Age has a lot to do with being able to come back strong! I was a huge Bernard King fan and there is no doubt that the injury had an impact on his game. He did re-adjust his game though and worked on other areas of his game to continue his dominance but just not at the same level. It will take WE a bit to get use to playing with a repaired knee, more mentally then physically but he's young enough so by his RS Jr. year he'll be at 99% of where he should be. I expect to see him really compete 100% by 2nd half of the season next year. There's no reason to rush him!
 
DC, any word on how Will is doing - is he shooting around during practice. I see him with the team and he looks to walking OK. He's going to be a key player for us next season.
 
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