Gary the Gargoyle
New member
I would support jumping at that in a heart-beat. I don't want to wait around until the MVC becomes more known for football than basketball, or ISU jumps to the MAC.
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Creighton and the new Catholic 7 league
- Thread starter Da Coach
- Start date
I would support jumping at that in a heart-beat. I don't want to wait around until the MVC becomes more known for football than basketball, or ISU jumps to the MAC.
TheAsianSensation
New member
I was actually thinking that WSU would be invited in a league that would add some of Tulsa and UTEP among others and Wichita could have a plains-based division to work with. But valid points nonetheless.
I think my wory with BU and the MVC longterm is that the loss of WSU and CU would tilt the football/nonfootball balance to the other side. The MVC is a threat, in 10-15 years, to become the junior version of the Big East in terms of membership splits and different goals and agendas of each team (FCS football, FBS aspirations, football-first, basketball-first, etc etc). But that's a down-the-line worry and not something threatening us for the next couple years.
Or does the MVC manage to capture Dayton and SLU in that case? I can't imagine the A10 is that attractive to the western outposts once Xavier, Butler, and Richmond or St Joes are gone. The MVC at the bottom is a much better conference than the A10 at the bottom is.
Compare the BU situation in either scenario:
MVC:
Bradley
Dayton
Drake
Evansville
Indiana St
Missouri St
Northern Iowa
St Louis
SIU
Wichita St
A10:
Bradley
Dayton
Duquesne*
Fordham*
GWU
LaSalle*
UMass
URI*
St Bonnie*
Richmond or St Joes
SLU
VCU
I've gone ahead an marked the trash with asterisks.
Each of those teams is arguably worse than Evansville (the program everyone loves to diss in the MVC) over the last 10 years or so. Also UMass, I think will probably end up in another conference soon.. So that leaves your quality programs as GWU, VCU and Richmond or St Joes. The MVC is a better league with much better geography for us, even if WSU leaves. So I'd have to think long and hard about jumping to an A10 without Xavier or Butler, even if Dayton and SLU were still in the conference. And if I was Dayton and SLU left behind in the A10 I'd think long and hard about the MVC as a step up.Xavier and Butler are shoe ins, so that's off the table. I just do not see SLU not joining the C12. If I'm FOX I'd want SLU and the conference makeup will dictate SLU. Now FOX will be trying to pull their strings as well and what makes sense to them may not make sense to the conference. Who wins out? Money does so anything is possible. I know DePaul wants CU in the mix. Can they and will they pull their market clout? Detroit and Richmond would also make sense on a few counts.
C7 + Xavier + Butler
SLU
CU + Dayton + (Richmond or VCU) + Detroit + Dusquane They all have a drawback and bring something very positive to the table.
Davidson + BU + DU + Valpo non catholic private schools that are outside of the cut unless it goes to 16.
I have to believe the way everything is breaking that a basketball focused conference will need to be at 16 and make sure the travel costs for the other sports teams are manageable. So this is where everything gets fuzzy.
East
Vill
GT
Providance
St. John
SH
Xavier - Could end up in either the mid-west or east coast division. I'd guess they will start off in the east but may change if teams are added.
Mid_West
Marq
DePaul
Butler
SLU
CU - I'd bet they are as good as gone.....
So in my analysis there is one more slot in the mid-west unless Xavier slides into the mid-west.
C7 + Xavier + Butler
SLU
CU + Dayton + (Richmond or VCU) + Detroit + Dusquane They all have a drawback and bring something very positive to the table.
Davidson + BU + DU + Valpo non catholic private schools that are outside of the cut unless it goes to 16.
I have to believe the way everything is breaking that a basketball focused conference will need to be at 16 and make sure the travel costs for the other sports teams are manageable. So this is where everything gets fuzzy.
East
Vill
GT
Providance
St. John
SH
Xavier - Could end up in either the mid-west or east coast division. I'd guess they will start off in the east but may change if teams are added.
Mid_West
Marq
DePaul
Butler
SLU
CU - I'd bet they are as good as gone.....
So in my analysis there is one more slot in the mid-west unless Xavier slides into the mid-west.
TheAsianSensation
New member
I posted this elsewhere but this is my rough guess at the pecking order for this new conference:
Tier 1: Xavier, Butler
Tier 2: Dayton, St Louis, Creighton
Tier 3: Richmond
Tier Go West, Young Man: Gonzaga, St Mary's
Tier 4: VCU, St Joseph's, Wichita St, Detroit, Duquesne
Tier 5: Drake, George Mason, St Bonaventure
Tier Hope: Bradley
Tier 1: Xavier, Butler
Tier 2: Dayton, St Louis, Creighton
Tier 3: Richmond
Tier Go West, Young Man: Gonzaga, St Mary's
Tier 4: VCU, St Joseph's, Wichita St, Detroit, Duquesne
Tier 5: Drake, George Mason, St Bonaventure
Tier Hope: Bradley
Dayton will not be in that pecking order for FOX$$$ and the west coast schools already have their conference set but I'm betting they will not hesitate to enter into an agreement with the C12 schools for marketing opportunities. It is not worth the time and resources for St. Mary's or Gonzaga to be part of the C12. Imagine shipping their baseball team out to GT for games? Also I'd put BU ahead of George Mason. GT would never ever allow them into their conference and I can't see WSU a public school enter the fray the same is true about VCU. There's certain things that a private institution can keep to themselves that a state funded institution can't.
No way BU comes behind St Bonnie or Drake. Or Duquesne or Detroit.
lake Camelot
New member
I say BU above Richmond, and Drake. But I think Duquesne and Detroit would be higher ranked than us.
Above Richmond? Richmond is pretty equivalent or more attractive, I think. Decent recent history, decent history, good market.
But St Bonaventure? What are you getting there? The incredible Olean, NY market? A good season last year? A player eligibility scandal? I don't get that one at all.
Drake, Duquesne, and Detroit, I guess you could make the market argument. But none of those programs has demonstrated anything near the fan support, money, or success that Bradley has. I agree that money is everything, but that doesn't mean market population is everything. I'd imagine the only people in Detroit who care about UDM are alums. They ARE spending on their programs, as opposed to Duquesne (who hasn't been in the tournament since 1977). Having been to a game at Drake, they're already a league below Bradley in terms of support, facilities, and I'm pretty sure their budget and revenues are lower.
TheAsianSensation
New member
Once you get past Tier Go West :lol: it becomes very dicey very quick for all the candidates. I still think Mason fits as a name brand, and balance the east/west thing if the C7 ever thinks about C16 or so, so I leave them up.
Obviously for the WCC candidates, that's a complete wildcard and can be placed anywhere in that tier list.
thefish7 said:
Detroit > Western New York > Pittsburgh > Des Moines > Peoria
Sorry, but it's true.
When you get down that low, basketball product importance decreases. Big fan base decreases. Television markets increase. Bradley has a better overall basketball product than all those schools (you could argue St Bonaventure is on the uptick) but it doesn't matter as much.
You need one of 3 things in realignment:
1) Big market - Richmond, Butler, St Louis, Xavier, and barely Dayton have this. Duquesne does. St Bonaventure is western NY isn't great but it's something. Detroit's nice.
2) Dominance (or prolonged overall success) in your current conference - For the last 5 years or so, GMU, VCU and ODU have owned the CAA. Gone gone gone. Belmont owned the A-Sun. Gone. Butler owned the Horizon. Gone.Creighton and WSU haven't owned the MVC, but they've been the two most consistent at the top over the long haul
3) Tournament results - VCU, Butler and Mason have these in spades
Bradley in those categories:
1) Peoria is not big enough, and even worse, is surrounded by St Louis and Chicago to the south, which means we represent a rather finite area that doesn't expand any footprint the way Des Moines might
2) Last 2 years aside, when the absolute peak is 4th, that's not enough. Even Drake with its one magical year would be preferred because the peak and then nothing provides more overall value than a string of mediocrity
3) 2006 is starting to get old in age so the value there is diminishing. But we do trump a few teams in that regard.
In short, we're decent in all 3 categories but decent gets you nowhere.
Western New York? 80,000 people live in the COUNTY that St Bonaventure is in. It's 80+ miles to Buffalo or Erie, PA. What??
Given those terms, Quad CIties, plus BloNo, plus Peoria, plus Forgottonia is a bigger market. So plus to BU?
I get your math on the others, even if I disagree on the actual formula I think you have all the factors. But St Bonaventure?
Given those terms, Quad CIties, plus BloNo, plus Peoria, plus Forgottonia is a bigger market. So plus to BU?
I get your math on the others, even if I disagree on the actual formula I think you have all the factors. But St Bonaventure?
TheAsianSensation
New member
Actually as I look it up I take it back. Fox Sports is not anywhere in New York. I thought they had a channel in western New York where St Bonaventure would be the "home" team.
Regarding the Peoria between StL and Chicago thing. I understand from a TV standpoint why there's no geographic growth. But a conference with a long term view, the potential of a BU, DePaul, SLU rivalry in a situation where all those teams had become a big deal probably has quite a bit of value. I doubt many people view it that way, though, particularly TV guys who are worried about 3 years from now-- not an uncertain 10 year future in which three programs geographically close happen to get good at the same time.
There is no chance that the conference would grow beyond 12 teams if the dollars didn't scale. Since there is basically no chance of that, its a bit of a waste of time considering scenarios beyond the 12 teams.
That said, what is a little interesting is that if they are really getting infatuated with the idea of VCU and given the logistical reasons for SLU (bridges Creighton to Butler/Marquette/Depaul), Dayton sort of gets squeezed.
That said, what is a little interesting is that if they are really getting infatuated with the idea of VCU and given the logistical reasons for SLU (bridges Creighton to Butler/Marquette/Depaul), Dayton sort of gets squeezed.
The first go round will only have 12 teams but an expansion will have to occur at a later date to 16 teams because college sports is all about the money. Two division conference will help limit travel costs for all the other sports programs as well as expand the brand without diluting it if you choose the right programs. That's why I think VCU would be a logical choice with Xavier playing in the mid-west division.
Yes, college sports is all about money. Thats why it's basically 0% chance it would ever go beyond 12 teams.
Fox (etc) is going to give the new league something between 3 million and 5 million per school over the course of 12 years in media fees.
The ONLY two schools that would scale that are Gonzaga and BYU. The members will not entertain any additions to the league without scaling revenue accordingly.
So, the possibility of it moving beyond 12 is really contingent figuring out how to logistically manage 4 time zone travel. Cant see that happening
Fox (etc) is going to give the new league something between 3 million and 5 million per school over the course of 12 years in media fees.
The ONLY two schools that would scale that are Gonzaga and BYU. The members will not entertain any additions to the league without scaling revenue accordingly.
So, the possibility of it moving beyond 12 is really contingent figuring out how to logistically manage 4 time zone travel. Cant see that happening
SLU would be the closest school to Creighton, but it by no means bridges the gap between Creighton and any of the other schools. If we are talking logistics, there's no way Dayton gets squeezed for SLU. That's why the talks are about SLU and VCU, but that's more of media creation more than anything.
Realistically speaking SLU is a bigger fish then Dayton. It's all about market value and potential. With Xavier already in, Dayton's apparent value diminishes greatly and it is a smaller market even so. If logistics is the number one concern then they would go up to 16.
BTW...The C7 already know their cut from any TV deal and any team entering into the conference will know they are taking less but most probably more then what they are getting in their conference. So going up to 16 teams in the future can be handled in a way to not impact their overall revenue. :-o
Some sports sites are reporting a new rumor that the Catholic 7 (the 7 Big East Catholic Universities) have agreed on a 10-team league that does not include Creighton. The Creighton people are upset to hear this. Apparently, they can't wait to ditch the rest of the MVC!
https://twitter.com/TheBluejayCafe/status/300060727610318849
I have trouble believing they wouldn't take Creighton over 1 or 2 of the other schools they are considering.
And one Wichita sports reporter is guessing that Wichita State will be asked to join the Atlantic-10 to replace one of the 4 A-10 teams that are among the candidates to join the Catholic League (Butler, Xavier, Dayton or St. Louis).
http://www.kwch.com/sports/kwch-jab-for-what-its-worth-february-8th-20130208,0,5487851.column
In one other conference move- UMKC is leaving the Summit to join the WAC-
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/02/07/4054339/umkc-to-join-western-athletic.html
https://twitter.com/TheBluejayCafe/status/300060727610318849
I have trouble believing they wouldn't take Creighton over 1 or 2 of the other schools they are considering.
And one Wichita sports reporter is guessing that Wichita State will be asked to join the Atlantic-10 to replace one of the 4 A-10 teams that are among the candidates to join the Catholic League (Butler, Xavier, Dayton or St. Louis).
http://www.kwch.com/sports/kwch-jab-for-what-its-worth-february-8th-20130208,0,5487851.column
In one other conference move- UMKC is leaving the Summit to join the WAC-
http://www.kansascity.com/2013/02/07/4054339/umkc-to-join-western-athletic.html