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Down year in the Valley

The postseason turned an average Valley year into one of the top 2 seasons in the past 10 for the conference (1 or 2 depending on how strongly you feel about 2006 - 40% NCAA participation, 60% in RPI Top 50 vs. a final four team, All-American, elevated floor with no sub-200 RPI teams).

And yes, those 4 games by Wichita changes the outlook of the season that much.
 
TheAsianSensation said:
The postseason turned an average Valley year into one of the top 2 seasons in the past 10 for the conference (1 or 2 depending on how strongly you feel about 2006 - 40% NCAA participation, 60% in RPI Top 50 vs. a final four team, All-American, elevated floor with no sub-200 RPI teams).

And yes, those 4 games by Wichita changes the outlook of the season that much.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone would down play what was accomplished in 2006. It certainly was something none of us will forget but I have felt for a long time some people on this board either intentionally or unintentionally have tried to downplay what we accomplished this season.I think it has been protrayed very unfairly and since facts are always important on our board I just wanted to share these.
 
Butler made it to the Final Four two straight years didn't they??
How come nobody tried then to make the argument that proved how incredibly strong the Horizon was...?
It's because it was only ONE team that's why - can't imagine anyone would confuse one team being really good and really hot at the right time - with the entire conference being great.
But....you're welcome to try....
 
tornado said:
Butler made it to the Final Four two straight years didn't they??
How come nobody tried then to make the argument that proved how incredibly strong the Horizon was...?
It's because it was only ONE team that's why - can't imagine anyone would confuse one team being really good and really hot at the right time - with the entire conference being great.
But....you're welcome to try....
Click to expand...

Wichita State lost 1/3 (6) of its conference games.....

Butler lost 5 total conference games in those 2 years.
 
wily coyote said:
I don't think anyone would down play what was accomplished in 2006. It certainly was something none of us will forget but I have felt for a long time some people on this board either intentionally or unintentionally have tried to downplay what we accomplished this season.I think it has been protrayed very unfairly and since facts are always important on our board I just wanted to share these.
Click to expand...

I know, just trying to give some historical context to this season. 2006 is the other season in recent memory that can compare to this one in terms of national relevance for the conference.
 
tornado said:
Butler made it to the Final Four two straight years didn't they??
How come nobody tried then to make the argument that proved how incredibly strong the Horizon was...?
It's because it was only ONE team that's why - can't imagine anyone would confuse one team being really good and really hot at the right time - with the entire conference being great.
But....you're welcome to try....
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone made the argument about how good the Hoizon was simply because nobody on here cared. Butler was very good those 2 years but still who cared. We are always given so many facts to back up our posts, guess we're gonna ignore the facts Dave put in his blog. Oh well to each his own. I for one think Dave's facts show a pretty clear picture of how good the Valley really was. Thanks Dave another good job.
 
The truth is that a single team and single tournament run can indeed affect perception of how good a season the conference had.

Just using the 2006 MVC season as an example - let's say there would've been one more bid thief out there, and instead of being last team in, Bradley instead is last team out of the NCAAs and ends up in the Final 4 in MSG in the NIT instead.

Without BU's run, the MVC gets 3 teams in the NCAA tournament. Not 4. MVC has gotten 3 in on a few select occasions, but never 4. One single bid thief was the difference between a great year and good year in that regard.

Without BU's run, the MVC gets 1 Sweet 16 team instead of 2. Valley has gotten several sweet 16 teams recently. Getting one is good but not special. Getting 2 is special. One single bid thief was the difference between a great year and good year in that regard.

Those 2 games BU won, turned a very good MVC season into a legendary one. Same could be said for Wichita's two wins that tournament. 2 games. That's all it took to make a big leap.

The same thing this year. 4 games. 4 games was all it took to go from average season to waaaaaaaaay above average season in the Valley.

And it's ok that a single team can affect it like that. Obviously each team contributes to the strength of the conference, but it's ok if one or two contribute very little, or if one or two contribute a disproportionate amount. The bottom line is that when you think of good Valley seasons, 2006 and 2013 will be the first two that come to mind (of the past 10-15 years or so).
 
TheAsianSensation said:
I know, just trying to give some historical context to this season. 2006 is the other season in recent memory that can compare to this one in terms of national relevance for the conference.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. It was very special. Hard to argue when 4 teams make the big dance. Hopefully those days are just ahead for us.
 
BeBrave said:
Wichita State lost 1/3 (6) of its conference games.....

Butler lost 5 total conference games in those 2 years.
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and someone will tell you Wichita had injuries and players missing
and someone else will tell you they had 10-game winning streaks and a Top 10 RPI at one time, etc..
One strong team with the other nine being not so strong still does not automatically equate to a strong conference

And what they hey with the "facts" argument?? Look up some numbers yourself!
BTW - an MVC team with a #18 RPI?? That's the best "fact" he can do??
Did you know Wichita's final RPI last year was 12?
And Northern Iowa's in 2010 was 17?...so two of the last THREE seasons we did even BETTER!

and facts are odd things - one can choose to cite what one wants...
Yet we only had TWO teams with RPI's better than 70 -??
Heck we've never done worse in recent memory and often had 3, 4, and as many as SIX with RPI better than 70!!
One year we had FOUR better than 40!!

Here's your best proof the Valley is down--

5-6 years ago we had Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU actually talking and thinking moving to the Valley is on their wish list.
Now - we got UIC and UMKC thinking moving to the Valley is on their wish list - case closed......
 
tornado said:
and facts are odd things - one can choose to cite what one wants...
Click to expand...

You should know...you use this concept every chance you get!

tornado said:
5-6 years ago we had Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU actually talking and thinking moving to the Valley is on their wish list.
Now - we got UIC and UMKC thinking moving to the Valley is on their wish list - case closed......
Click to expand...

I don't think these schools you cite were EVER on the Valley radar screen...but you keep on dreaming up big stories to support your opinion.
 
tornado said:
and someone will tell you Wichita had injuries and players missing
and someone else will tell you they had 10-game winning streaks and a Top 10 RPI at one time, etc..
Click to expand...

Actually, if you want to be fair, Wichita did have a lot of injury problems that ended up hurting their overall profile. Injuries is a fair excuse, right? Don't see why it wouldn't apply here.

One strong team with the other nine being not so strong still does not automatically equate to a strong conference
Click to expand...
My earlier posts actually serve as a rebuttal to this point. It's not that one team can't make a conference strong on its own, but it CAN have a disproportionate effect.

And what they hey with the "facts" argument?? Look up some numbers yourself!
BTW - an MVC team with a #18 RPI?? That's the best "fact" he can do??
Did you know Wichita's final RPI last year was 12?
And Northern Iowa's in 2010 was 17?...so two of the last THREE seasons we did even BETTER!
Click to expand...
Hasn't everyone learned by now that using RPI to determine a single team's worth is outdated in these comparisons? This goes for both sides of the argument. The only place RPI has value is the aggregate - to compare groups of teams, not the individual team.

and facts are odd things - one can choose to cite what one wants...
Yet we only had TWO teams with RPI's better than 70 -??
Heck we've never done worse in recent memory and often had 3, 4, and as many as SIX with RPI better than 70!!
One year we had FOUR better than 40!!
Click to expand...

Then let me choose to cite that every single team was above 200 in the RPI, thereby raising the floor of the Valley. Also half the conference was top 100, which is right around average. And actually, the year you cite with 4 in the top 40, wasn't that 6 in the top 45 that year? It was even better than you say.

But again, RPI is outdated, so I shouldn't stress on those numbers too much.

5-6 years ago we had Saint Louis, Butler, and VCU actually talking and thinking moving to the Valley is on their wish list.
Now - we got UIC and UMKC thinking moving to the Valley is on their wish list - case closed......
Click to expand...

WHAT!??!?!?! Find me one shred of evidence anywhere that VCU was actually considering the Valley. St Louis and Butler are different stories obviously - don't know about St Louis's admins wanting an east coast presence, but I'm sure Butler wanted in. Want to know why they're no longer considering the Valley though? BECAUSE THE BIG EAST WANTS THEM. Even the Valley in its best super duper years can't compete with that. Just because Butler and St Louis are trying to move on to a premium conference doesn't mean the Valley is down by association.

By the way, if the Valley adds UIC or UMKC, everyone has the right to be mad about it, including you.
 
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