Brewers fire manager

[Da Coach]

So is Yost the worst manager in history?

How many games did you expect the Brewers to win this year?
Considering the experts all predicted 85-90 wins, and they had 83 with 2 weeks to go when they fired Yost. That means Yost was on track for 90+ wins, more than about anyone predicted. Just think how good they might have been if they weren't burdened with the worst manager in history.

[pfunk880]

That's an interesting perspective. The Brewers had the 2nd best record in the NL (not any more after last night's loss), and they were on target to win 90+ games and make the playoffs. As much as some criticize Yost, that's quite an accomplishment for a team with a modest cumulative salary (15th out of 30), no leadoff hitter, only 1 consistent quality starting pitcher, and other flaws.

I assure you, things could get a lot worse. Look at Cleveland, Detroit, Seattle, Baltimore, St. Louis, and the Yankees, all of whom have similar or higher team salaries and are hopelessly out of contention.

If changing managers with less than 2 weeks left in a season when a team is contending for a pennant was a good idea, why hasn't any team ever done it before? I still think it's a bad idea, and will have negative effects.

Well, at least you've backed off your "wins mean everything for a pitcher" stance. That's progress... however you still seem fixated on what the so-called "experts" predicted.

Furthermore, yes our payroll is modest, but it's certainly a far cry from where it was in past years. We gave Ryan Braun a large extension, and added salary both before the season and then during the season with the Sabathia acquisition. Also keep in mind that the payroll is low in part because we just have a lot of young talent that we haven't had to pay the big bucks to yet. Granted, we're still a small-market team, but teams such as Minnesota, Oakland, Tampa Bay, and Florida have proven that you don't have to spend big bucks to be competitive. Meanwhile, teams like the Yankees are floundering (as you have mentioned), and even your precious Cubbies weren't anything special in 2007 after that spending spree in the offseason before. I think that to a certain degree, the days of buying championships are over, as even teams like the Yankees are trying to strengthen their farm systems and build from within. So while big spending will always help to a degree, I don't know that it will necessarily be the factor it was last decade. Good scouting can now help level the playing field somewhat and at least give the small markets windows of years to compete.

Finally, I realize you probably haven't seen many Brewers games this month, but I've seen them all, and I can assure you that the team had no fire, was too tight, and the wheels were totally coming off. Yes, they are mathematically on a 90-win pace, but if you look at what they've done in the last few weeks, there is no way they were going to reach that number. The team that got to 80 wins by the end of August had completely disappeared, following their manager's lead in crumbling under the pressure.

Thus, something had to be done. Will it work? I have no idea, but standing back and watching the team self-destruct was an even worse option. If this team can right the ship quickly, there is still a chance. Last night, they finally showed some fight, and even though they lost, there was definitely a better demeanor about the team than what I saw in the first 14 games of the month.

[Da Coach]

Well, at least you've backed off your "wins mean everything for a pitcher" stance. That's progress... however you still seem fixated on what the so-called "experts" predicted.

What? Where did I say anything even remotely close to "wins mean everything for a pitcher"?

Sorry, but I haven't backed off anything. I have only proven my original point that the Brewers starting pitching going into this season was not as strong as some here think it was. I merely said that they did not have a single pitcher who had won more than 12 games for them, and despite claims by another poster that I was wrong and they did, I was in fact right about that.

I personally don't care one bit what experts think, but to show that I am not the only person in the world who think the Brewers have had a fine season, and in fact overachieved beyond most people's expectations. Yost was on track for a 90+ win season, had the 2nd best record in the NL, and was on track to make the playoffs. But after a few losses, everyone wants him gone. Now the team in in major turmoil, this late-season firing has thrown their team into chaos, and it will be difficult for them to find stability now and keep from missing the playoffs all together.

Hey, I couldn't care less what the Brewers do, as I am not a fan. If Brewer fans are happy to get rid of Yost, fine, but why anyone would want to have this happen at this crucial point of a highly successful season, I don't understand. If anyone thinks switching managers now is good for this team, good luck.

[Scouter]

So is Yost the worst manager in history?

How many games did you expect the Brewers to win this year?
Considering the experts all predicted 85-90 wins, and they had 83 with 2 weeks to go when they fired Yost. That means Yost was on track for 90+ wins, more than about anyone predicted. Just think how good they might have been if they weren't burdened with the worst manager in history.

Considering he got fired with two weeks left during a season in which the team was going to win 90-plus games and was tied for the lead in the wild card and now a majority of the fan base says he should've been gone sooner, I don't think it's a stretch to say Yost is one of the worst managers of a good team in the last 15 years or so.

[Scouter]

I merely said that they did not have a single pitcher who had won more than 12 games for them, and despite claims by another poster that I was wrong and they did, I was in fact right about that.

I noted in my original post that you said "more than 12 wins." My point was to show that their pitchers weren't as bad as you thought. And two of them had won more "more than 12" games.

[pfunk880]

What? Where did I say anything even remotely close to "wins mean everything for a pitcher"?

Sorry, but I haven't backed off anything. I have only proven my original point that the Brewers starting pitching going into this season was not as strong as some here think it was. I merely said that they did not have a single pitcher who had won more than 12 games for them, and despite claims by another poster that I was wrong and they did, I was in fact right about that.

I personally don't care one bit what experts think, but to show that I am not the only person in the world who think the Brewers have had a fine season, and in fact overachieved beyond most people's expectations. Yost was on track for a 90+ win season, had the 2nd best record in the NL, and was on track to make the playoffs. But after a few losses, everyone wants him gone. Now the team in in major turmoil, this late-season firing has thrown their team into chaos, and it will be difficult for them to find stability now and keep from missing the playoffs all together.

Hey, I couldn't care less what the Brewers do, as I am not a fan. If Brewer fans are happy to get rid of Yost, fine, but why anyone would want to have this happen at this crucial point of a highly successful season, I don't understand. If anyone thinks switching managers now is good for this team, good luck.

By continuing to point to the lack of 12+ game winners, you are implying that wins are an important stat for pitchers. In reality, as I said before, a pitcher's W-L record is possibly the most pointless and overrated stat in all of sports. So much of it has to do with the team surrounding the pitcher, and as I have already stated, an average offensive ballclub would have netted Ben Sheets a 19-7 record in 2004 as opposed to the 12-14 record he had with the Brewers.

When I posted this information before, and you completely ignored it, I assumed that you had backed off that stat and realized the irrelevance of a pitchers record. I guess you haven't.

Again, they weren't the same team they were a few weeks back. A complete late season trainwreck does not make for a successful season. They were going to miss the playoffs altogether with Yost -- we're not just talking about "a few losses" here. This was an utterly abysmal stretch of baseball against good and bad teams alike. The team was failing in every aspect of the game. Furthermore, most Brewer fans I know have wanted Yost gone since the end of last season. We weren't exactly in love with the guy two weeks ago. The general feeling is that we were winning in spite of the guy, not because of him.

Also, I didn't realize that you spend time in the Brewers' clubhouse regularly. How are you qualified to say that it has "thrown them into chaos?"

And to say we are on track to make the playoffs when we blew a 5 1/2 game lead in 15 days is completely insane. If not for the Astros getting completely screwed by MLB last weekend, we'd probably have better odds of finishing third in the division than we would of making the playoffs.

You are right about one thing. This is a crucial point in the season. That's why a move needed to be made, to light a fire under the team before it's too late.

[pfunk880]

Considering he got fired with two weeks left during a season in which the team was going to win 90-plus games and was tied for the lead in the wild card and now a majority of the fan base says he should've been gone sooner, I don't think it's a stretch to say Yost is one of the worst managers of a good team in the last 15 years or so.

Exactly. As I said before, I don't think this team overachieved by any stretch. I think they did to an extent last year, but all the young players were now a year more experienced, and the feeling in Milwaukee was that this team had a very good shot to contend.

Honestly, Dusty Baker is the only name that comes to mind when I think of recent managers that have done less with more.

[pfunk880]

Da Coach,

Here in an article from Baseball Prospectus, which probably knows more about baseball than the both of us combined:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=8077

By the way, at Baseball Prospectus, out of 17 people, 8 picked Milwaukee to win the division this year and two picked them for the wildcard. I'm slightly more inclined to trust them than ESPN and the rest of the mainstream media.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7320

[Da Coach]

In 2005, the White Sox had a 20 game lead over Cleveland with 2 months to go in the season. Then through a series of similae bad managing moves, the lead shrunk to 1/2 game before the Sox went on a hot streak the last 2 weeks of the season to win easily. Of course they went on to win the World Series. If they had panicked and fired Ozzie Guillen when they looked like they were about to blow their lead, I am sure they wouldn't have won the World Series.

I see this Brewers move as similar to that 2005 Sox season. People can nitpick over every little decision he's made and blame Yost all they want, but overall I think he has done a good job and would have gotten them to the playoffs. There, with the 2 strong starters, who knows how far they could have gone. I would have liked to see him get the chance.
But by changing managers now, I think they have sacrificed any chance they had to get to the playoffs.

Do you think the change will help them this season?

[pfunk880]

In 2005, the White Sox had a 20 game lead over Cleveland with 2 months to go in the season. Then through a series of similae bad managing moves, the lead shrunk to 1/2 game before the Sox went on a hot streak the last 2 weeks of the season to win easily. Of course they went on to win the World Series. If they had panicked and fired Ozzie Guillen when they looked like they were about to blow their lead, I am sure they wouldn't have won the World Series.

I see this Brewers move as similar to that 2005 Sox season. People can nitpick over every little decision he's made and blame Yost all they want, but overall I think he has done a good job and would have gotten them to the playoffs. There, with the 2 strong starters, who knows how far they could have gone. I would have liked to see him get the chance.
But by changing managers now, I think they have sacrificed any chance they had to get to the playoffs.

Do you think the change will help them this season?

Yes, I do think the change can only help them. If you happened to read the Baseball Prospectus article, I side fully with the author. And in fact, as I already stated, I think they showed more heart last night than in the previous 14 games behind.

And in your example, the White Sox never lost the lead. In our case, the lead has already been blown and time is running out for a recovery. In addition, the precedent of last year's blown lead is already there. Based on previous history, and the way things were going so far this September, there's a lot more reason to believe Yost was not going to get them to the playoffs. Your thought that he would have gotten them to the playoffs is based on blind faith and not reason.

As a Cubs fan, I'm sure you would have liked to see him get the chance to continue managing the Brewers. Actually, you're probably just concerned that the Brewers will play the Cubs tougher with a competent manager.

Oh, and you still haven't responded to my comments about wins being a useless way of measuring a pitcher's worth. Or my comments about payroll for that matter.

[Da Coach]

Wins are not a totally useless measure of a pitcher, but they don't always reflect their true value. A lot of factors need to be taken into consideration.

[pfunk880]

Wins are not a totally useless measure of a pitcher, but they don't always reflect their true value. A lot of factors need to be taken into consideration.

Meh... close enough.

At any rate, I believe I've proven the point that the Brewers have not, in fact, "overachieved" this year.

And hey, they won last night!

[pfunk880]

Looks like the move worked out alright after all.

[Da Coach]

Maybe the Brewers should have stayed with Yost.

[pfunk880]

Well, the Brewers did win one more playoff game than the Flubs.

Just sayin'...