Another campus shooting at Virginia Tech

[Bravesfan]

Bravesfan your opinion is fine but I know some very successful pot smoking individuals. I should put really successful pot smoking individuals. It is their choice and why should the government dictate it? There are also medicinal value in the drug. Anything you abuse you can find danger and are we going to outlaw alcohol? We know how that went. On taking taxes out to pay for rehab and education what's wrong with that? We are doing the same thing with cigarettes and it takes money out of the criminal element within our society. I'm a complete social libertarian and would like to see government interference minimized.

On the subject manner at hand I believe these events are not going to stop but become more prevalent in our society. The biggest reason as you stated has nothing to do with gun control but the break down of our communities and how we are connecting with each other. The destruction of Main Street is not going to help!

Hey, I agree with you 100% on minimal government. When that crazy mayor of New York City bans sodas over 16 ounces, you know that our government has completely lost its way. That said though, drugs and other dangerous substances are a completely different animal, and there are reasons why there are laws against legalizing drugs.

In my opinion, minimum government does not meaning giving our government complete cart blanche to legalize everything. Any free society has to have some limits, but putting limits on certain things does not mean we are heading towards a totalarian government either. Unfortunately, when our government does come up with some common sense limitations, there always seems to exist the same group of people who cry and moan that our liberties are at risk. When it comes to banning drugs, that couldn't be further from the truth. However, I do fear we are headed in that direction when it comes to "substances" that do not harm other people, as in the case of this outrageous soda ban in New York.

That aside though, regarding pot, I did not mean to imply SFP that everyone who smokes it is not intelligent enough to do their job. And I also did not mean that everyone who smokes pot is an immediate danger to others while driving. That said though, I really hope your friends who use this stuff are aware of the dangers of using this drug, even if there are no visible signs of trouble. And even if someone who smokes pot is bright enough and alert enough to overcome "side effects" of the drug, that does not mean the damage isn't being done.

I am a conservative, but there is definitely a lot that I like about the libertarian philosophy of less government that the Republican party seems to have long abandoned. That said though, what is it about most libertarians and their belief in drug legalization?! I never understood that, and I think that one issue in particular is what has kept many more people from subscribing to that party and their platform. I'm all for freedom from the governement, but not allowing people to do anything they want without regards to others. Legalizing drugs (be it pot or anything worse) sure would infringe on my rights to a safe environment if they were allowed to be legalized.

[SFP]

I'm not going to fight for NORML but plain and simple the prohibition of pot is not working and all it is doing is costing tax payers a ton of money in enforcement, court system and jails. I'm not even going into the economics of wasted productivity of young men and women sent to jail. Further I believe the whole war on drugs is being fault incorrectly. Drug addiction is an illness just like alcoholics need intervention. With legalization we can then focus our attention on other more dangerous areas in our society and use the revenue that pot can create into the education of pot and other elicit drugs. Prohibition did not work for alcohol and it is not clearly working for pot. Bravesfan on your point of infringement of you safety I'd have to say the guns that the criminal elements can purchase with their pot revenue is a much bigger issue on your safety then your neighbor smoking a bong when he gets home from work.

[Bravesfan]

I'm not going to fight for NORML but plain and simple the prohibition of pot is not working and all it is doing is costing tax payers a ton of money in enforcement, court system and jails. I'm not even going into the economics of wasted productivity of young men and women sent to jail. Further I believe the whole war on drugs is being fault incorrectly. Drug addiction is an illness just like alcoholics need intervention. With legalization we can then focus our attention on other more dangerous areas in our society and use the revenue that pot can create into the education of pot and other elicit drugs. Prohibition did not work for alcohol and it is not clearly working for pot. Bravesfan on your point of infringement of you safety I'd have to say the guns that the criminal elements can purchase with their pot revenue is a much bigger issue on your safety then your neighbor smoking a bong when he gets home from work.

I agree about my safety regarding pot smokers versus criminals with guns. Criminals with guns are definitely the much bigger threat, though I don't think more gun control would have stopped that madman in Connecticut the other day. And I also agree that our jails are way to overcrowded and we probably would do a lot better than jailing someone everytime they go caught with drugs, illegal or not.

Tell you what, I'll meet you half way on this one SFP. Instead of arresting someone everytime they get caught using drugs, just give them a fine, akin to a traffic ticket, with maybe a course on the dangers of using that specific drug in the same fashion as traffic school.

You see, I'm willing to compromise. Something most of our politicians have completely forgotten how to do!

[tornado]

unfortunately there's barely time between these senseless acts to even grieve..
case in point - some bozo in Indiana with a stockpile of weapons that would make most nation's army jealous is threatening to shoot up a school in Indiana..

http://www.wthr.com/story/20356671/ind-man-with-47-guns-arrested-after-school-threat

anyone who owns guns - if they make a threat or if they allow unstable people into their homes - should have their weapons seized just like people who drive drunk lose their license...
nobody should be able to keep weapons in their home that fire 6 to 20 shots per second, and and if you want to buy 600 rounds of ammo - you have to go through at least as vigorous scrutiny and licensing as you do when you get married or enroll in college!

[Beninator]

anyone who owns guns - if they make a threat or if they allow unstable people into their homes - should have their weapons seized just like people who drive drunk lose their license...
nobody should be able to keep weapons in their home that fire 6 to 20 shots per second, and and if you want to buy 600 rounds of ammo - you have to go through at least as vigorous scrutiny and licensing as you do when you get married or enroll in college!

I had a conversation similar to this tonight with a fellow poster. So let me get this straight, are you in favor of more background checks etc for gun purchases and ammunition purchase in the future?

FYI, I have been a gun owner since my father purchased a 22 rifle for me when I was in seventh grade and I agree that more needs to be done to improve the gun culture in the US.

[SFP]

I had a conversation similar to this tonight with a fellow poster. So let me get this straight, are you in favor of more background checks etc for gun purchases and ammunition purchase in the future?

FYI, I have been a gun owner since my father purchased a 22 rifle for me when I was in seventh grade and I agree that more needs to be done to improve the gun culture in the US.

Agree but we also need to do more with our mental health culture. As a nation we tend to want to medicate someone and or send them to jail which by all accounts is not doing the job. I'm not sure what the answer is but we need to do a better job profiling the people that are capable of these atrocities and find a way in limiting these people from being totally disconnected.

This nation has always have had guns and mentally unstable individuals. Why is it now that these types of incident are happening so frequently. I believe part of it is the destruction of our small communities that kept these behavioral issues in check. Everyone had to contribute to their well being one way or the other if it meant working on a farm or factory which kept you from obsessing from negative thoughts.

[Da Coach]

Agree but we also need to do more with our mental health culture. As a nation we tend to want to medicate someone and or send them to jail which by all accounts is not doing the job. I'm not sure what the answer is but we need to do a better job profiling the people that are capable of these atrocities and find a way in limiting these people from being totally disconnected.

This nation has always have had guns and mentally unstable individuals. Why is it now that these types of incident are happening so frequently. I believe part of it is the destruction of our small communities that kept these behavioral issues in check. Everyone had to contribute to their well being one way or the other if it meant working on a farm or factory which kept you from obsessing from negative thoughts.

I share your concern for the mental health issue. However, I do not think it's connection to violent behavior is due to medication use. If anything, it's just the opposite- these violent criminals would have been far less likely not to commit such horrible crimes if they had been identified and under treatment and medicated properly.

There has always been a small segment of the population who suffers from mental illness. However, throughout history, until just the last 40-50 years, societies have dealt with mental illness by warehousing those afflicted into asylums. At one time there were hundreds of large mental asylums in the US. The development of medications are what allowed most of these individuals to live normal or near-normal lives, and lead to closure of numerous facilities like the Peoria State Hospital.

As you say, most mentally ill people are not treated. The problem is that civil liberty groups have pushed for treatment of mental illness to be strictly voluntary, and most choose not to seek treatment or to stop taking their medications.

[Beninator]

Agree but we also need to do more with our mental health culture. As a nation we tend to want to medicate someone and or send them to jail which by all accounts is not doing the job. I'm not sure what the answer is but we need to do a better job profiling the people that are capable of these atrocities and find a way in limiting these people from being totally disconnected.

This nation has always have had guns and mentally unstable individuals. Why is it now that these types of incident are happening so frequently. I believe part of it is the destruction of our small communities that kept these behavioral issues in check. Everyone had to contribute to their well being one way or the other if it meant working on a farm or factory which kept you from obsessing from negative thoughts.

I agree with this as well. This is a complex issue that involves the gun culture, mental health, and as stated earlier in one of these threads video games.

[tornado]

almost every one of these mass murderers and even a big percentage of the dysfunctional people in history from Hitler to Lenin came from a dysfunctional family as well - a family where there was not a stable father-mother environment throughout childhood...
Many changes over the past decades have led to the majority of kids now being raised in a setting where they no longer have both their mother & father there.

We can outlaw guns and put kids on all kinds of medicines - but regardless of whether we deny it or ignore it - we have created a serious situation for generations to come where aggressive, dysfunctional kids filled with anger and hate will dominate headlines over and over again...society is paying the price of anti-family trends...

[tornado]

yet another enraged shooter kills multiple victims in Colorado but this time with the twist that just hours before he committed these crimes -
he was in jail on domestic violaence charges and his ex-girlfriend had pleaded for the law enforcement officials NOT to release him...
but release the killer they did - who immediately went out, bought a gun & ammo and went to the ex-girlfriend's home and killed three people then himself...!

http://news.yahoo.com/gunman-released-jail-hours-killings-235718323.html

[ChewaBrave]

but marijuana does change people's brains and can alter intelligence permanently - if hamburgers did this - they would be banned not legalized...
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showpost.p...00&postcount=1

Alcohol does that.

[tornado]

small amounts of alcohol just 3 or 4 days per week does not cause irreversible brain damage and loss of cognitive function or IQ
...as this study has proven that small amounts of marijuana DOES CAUSE over time...
Large amounts of alcohol does have serious risks - I agree with you - but then almost every foreign substance put into the body can have risks - I guess I am just stunned at how little many people regard what they put into their system - especially some of the stuff just to make them "feel better" or get high

[ChewaBrave]

small amounts of alcohol just 3 or 4 days per week does not cause irreversible brain damage and loss of cognitive function or IQ
...as this study has proven that small amounts of marijuana DOES CAUSE over time...
Large amounts of alcohol does have serious risks - I agree with you - but then almost every foreign substance put into the body can have risks - I guess I am just stunned at how little many people regard what they put into their system - especially some of the stuff just to make them "feel better" or get high

The article says that deficits were shown among adolescents deemed "Cannabis-Dependent" at some point in their teens. Without delving into the methodology it is hard to ascertain how that is measured, but if someone is dependent, that implies a larger than 'casual' dose. As a comparison, I would not say someone that Drinks a small amount 3-4 times a week as alcohol-dependent.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, I just think it should be treated the same way as alcohol. Age limitation, and taxation.

[SFP]

Chewa we are on the same page on this. Also decriminalization of pot will allow law enforcement to use their limited resources on try to stop violent crimes and thieves. The tax revenue from pot could be used for positive programs in the community instead of criminals using the money for guns and other destructive means.

BTW...I believe the legalization of pot is inevitable. Wall Street is starting to create investment vehicles for the distribution and growing of marijuana. Its just a matter of time they unleash their special interest on Washington.

[tornado]

Three more major multiple shooting incidents yesterday...

and not one of them would have been prevented by more gun laws - as all three were long time, repeat criminals who had their guns illegally and would have likely had them even if 100 more laws were passed!
-- two of them were free to commit more killings because the justice system went easy on them the LAST TIME THEY KILLED SOMEONE!!!

Funny how these shootings don't get anywhere near the publicity as some do.....


New York - William Spangler lures firefighters then shoots them

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/25/fire-trap-gunman-dead-after-killing-2-firefighters-at-scene-western-ny-blaze/

...this guy was a lifelong criminal and was even convicted once before of shooting and killing his own grandmother - so why is he out of jail??
This guy sure isn't an NRA member - could we maybe turn some attention to those who are at fault instead of demonizing those who do NOT kill?

http://www.therightscoop.com/horrible-2-firefighters-shot-and-killed-2-more-wounded-after-responding-to-house-fire-in-webster-ny/

In Houston - this shooter was just randomly killing people - he was a down-and-out druggie - and one of his victims killed was a police officer.

http://www.myfoxhouston.com/story/20419694/2012/12/24/family-of-suspected-shooter-apologizes-for-officer-bystanders-deaths

In Seattle - in an incident reminiscent of last May's cafe shootings...

...a gunman walked into a cafe and started shooting...
this killer had also previously beaten & killed another victim just four years ago!!
So how is he on the street and how does he get guns?? Maybe this is the problem and not the laws governing guns that he obviously chose to ignore.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Police-identify-suspect-in-Bellevue-fatal-shooting-184723491.html

Another random, gun-rage multiple shooting just two days earlier in Pennsylvania - was committed as well by an angry man on a rampage,
but the fact that he went to a church and specifically targeted a woman decorating the church for Christmas - suggests a hostility towards religion.

http://www.seattlepi.com/news/crime/article/Motive-sought-in-Pa-slayings-of-3-gunman-killed-4140109.php

Another guy went wild and started shooting his gun in a barber shop in Missouri but thankfully he didn't kill anyone..
again -- same thing - just rage and anger over some horribly trivial issue - and he is not a right winger gun nut or NRA member.
BTW - this guy is ALSO A CONVICTED FELON and the laws already prohibit him from being in possession of a gun but he had one anyway!!
He said it was his wife's gun -- so I suppose we ought to start outlawing every gun that belongs to a relative of someone who shouldn't have a gun?
If we ever did go that far - maybe Adam Lanza's mom should have never had guns?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/barber-shop-conversation-in-wentzville-about-connecticut-shootings-ends-with/article_fad31906-a801-5819-9566-4d3129bbc114.html

http://hinterlandgazette.com/tag/lester-davis-newtown-school-shooting-massacre

Meanwhile, in Chicago, dozens are shot every week and barely get a mention even in Chicago!
Chicago already has some of the toughest gun laws in existence.

http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/20/in-newtowns-shadow-chicagos-bleak-gun-toll-goes-on/