Mark McGwire gets standing ovation!

[tornado]

Wrong. Every single person who took steroids, ped's, human growth hormones, or anything else during any era is an a$$. ....

that would leave only Jim Thome, Frank Thomas, and Greg Maddux....and maybe Ozzie Guillen

[BuB]

that would leave only Jim Thome, Frank Thomas, and Greg Maddux....and maybe Ozzie Guillen

Ozzie is an a$$ for many other reasons........ right BU Rick.

[houstontxbrave]

[QUOTE=BuB;159203] Thome, Girardi, Shouse, are in that group. QUOTE]

Why because they said so? Just because someone isnt failing a drug test does not mean they are not guilty if for anything other then by association. That ist of 100 names. What happens if someone is on it, that you dont expect to be on it? Then what more excuses?

You dont think any of those 3 didnt have any knowledge of what was going on in the sport? Didnt even the non-user have a respondsibilty to speak up and to clean up the sport? Or was it more important to the non user to stay quiet and keep cashing tainted pay checks.

Just because a guy is a good guy and is local, doesnt mean he could have never been involved in something to help inhance his abilities. Thome's before and after pictures are startling.

I am not wrong since it is completely my opinion. But I stick by they are all guilty and lieing jerks.

[SFP]

that would leave only Jim Thome, Frank Thomas, and Greg Maddux....and maybe Ozzie Guillen

Let's not leave off Cal Ripken! The game would have survived without McGwire and Sosa IMO but we would not be paying the price we have to pay now to see a game. I only now go to game when I get free tickets. I use to buy season weekend ticket plans but the prices for decent seats have gotten way out of hand.

[BuB]

[QUOTE=houstontxbrave;159221]

Thome, Girardi, Shouse, are in that group. QUOTE]

Why because they said so? Just because someone isnt failing a drug test does not mean they are not guilty if for anything other then by association. That ist of 100 names. What happens if someone is on it, that you dont expect to be on it? Then what more excuses?

You dont think any of those 3 didnt have any knowledge of what was going on in the sport? Didnt even the non-user have a respondsibilty to speak up and to clean up the sport? Or was it more important to the non user to stay quiet and keep cashing tainted pay checks.

Just because a guy is a good guy and is local, doesnt mean he could have never been involved in something to help inhance his abilities. Thome's before and after pictures are startling.

I am not wrong since it is completely my opinion. But I stick by they are all guilty and lieing jerks.

That is the biggest way to prove you have not cheated. Pass every test. You assume that these guys talk about cheating freely in the locker rooms and have open discussions. Whoever makes that decision to cheat will only speak to others with the same character, again, players with no morals or values. If you don't want to get caught you don't talk freely. (McGwire)

That argument is like saying all NBA guys are jerks because of Arenas or Artest and all NFL guys are jerks because of Vick or Plaxico. Union workers are not all jerks and guilty because some of them fail a test or get caught doing something illegal. These *****s are not broadcasting their intentions to everyone.

A non user is not cashing a tainted check. He is the only one earning it the right way. If anything they are losing money because some *****s have success at their expense.

Its funny you mention Thome's size. If you knew the family you would know that he is one of the smallest. Very likely he was going to get bigger.

[Murph]

Let's not leave off Cal Ripken! The game would have survived without McGwire and Sosa IMO but we would not be paying the price we have to pay now to see a game. I only now go to game when I get free tickets. I use to buy season weekend ticket plans but the prices for decent seats have gotten way out of hand.

I don't think I'd go if somebody gave me free tickets....

[Murph]

Carlton Fisk rips McGwire

Fisk, who caught 2,226 games spanning 24 seasons for the Boston Red Sox and then the Chicago White Sox, said McGwire's insistence that steroids did not help him total 583 career home runs is "a crock."
"[McGwire] says, 'Well, it doesn't help eye-and-hand coordination.' Well, of course it does," Fisk told the Tribune for Wednesday's editions. "It allows you more acuity physically and mentally and optically. You are going to be stronger and you are going to be better.

Some guys who went that route got their five-year, $35 million contracts and now are off into the sunset somewhere. Because once they can't use [steroids] anymore, they can't play anymore.""Try having your knees operated on and catching for 30 years," Fisk added. "Do you think you feel good when you go out there? [McGwire] had to stand around and play first base. So excuuuuuse me."

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4841486&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

[houstontxbrave]

[QUOTE=BuB;159258]

Its funny you mention Thome's size. If you knew the family you would know that he is one of the smallest. Very likely he was going to get bigger.

Actually BuB I went to high school with Thome, played baseball and basketball with him and actually do know his family, Limestone class of 88, I also played college baseball against him when he went to ICC and played SS. And am well aware of his brothers and their size and also he has a twin sister.

And I still stand by the before and after picture comment. Is it true no idea but look at before Bonds, McGwire photos and after photos and it is not a big stretch. All were not the mammoth ripped players they became later in their careers.

And it is pretty assumptive that only drug users talk with drug users and that no one else in the locker room would have any idea of what was going on.

But of course my comments are also assumptive, because I have zero proof, but I am only giving MY opinion. I think all baseball players in the steroid era were liars and cheats. And baseball got very rich and all players got very rich because the sport turned a blind eye to steriod use because it was beneficial to the sport. If you think "non users" were screwed money wise because of others use, fine but I think everyone got a whole lot more money then they would have gotten if this thing was clean.

[DeltaBrave03]

Carlton Fisk rips McGwire

Fisk, who caught 2,226 games spanning 24 seasons for the Boston Red Sox and then the Chicago White Sox, said McGwire's insistence that steroids did not help him total 583 career home runs is "a crock."
"[McGwire] says, 'Well, it doesn't help eye-and-hand coordination.' Well, of course it does," Fisk told the Tribune for Wednesday's editions. "It allows you more acuity physically and mentally and optically. You are going to be stronger and you are going to be better.

Some guys who went that route got their five-year, $35 million contracts and now are off into the sunset somewhere. Because once they can't use [steroids] anymore, they can't play anymore.""Try having your knees operated on and catching for 30 years," Fisk added. "Do you think you feel good when you go out there? [McGwire] had to stand around and play first base. So excuuuuuse me."


http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb...=ESPNHeadlines

Fisk really shows what kind of guy he is here. I haven't seen one instance of Pujols whining because he had numours MVPs stolen from him by Bonds. Most players care about stats, Pujols just wants to win, and IMO that is why he will be considered one of the greatest if not greatest of all time, and probably win 3-4 more titles. He makes everyone around him better by not accepting failure and expecting the highest of all his teammates. Forty years from now I will be telling my kids of how I was fortunate enough to watch the greatest player in the world play every day.

[SFP]

Fisk really shows what kind of guy he is here. I haven't seen one instance of Pujols whining because he had numours MVPs stolen from him by Bonds. Most players care about stats, Pujols just wants to win, and IMO that is why he will be considered one of the greatest if not greatest of all time, and probably win 3-4 more titles. He makes everyone around him better by not accepting failure and expecting the highest of all his teammates. Forty years from now I will be telling my kids of how I was fortunate enough to watch the greatest player in the world play every day.

How many MVPs Bonds stole? I'd have to say zero because Bonds' years were before Pujols' best years and after the steroid era. What's wrong with Fisk calling out a cheat? Get the kool-aid out of your eyes. McGwire cheated and will not see the outside of Cooperstown right or wrong and most probably Bonds neither. Both are cheaters. PERIOD! Pujols is probably one of the best hitters ever, I'll give him that but his numbers still do not come close to Ted Williams, an American hero who served our country in two conflicts and still has some of the best all time numbers ever. (He served in Korea during his prime) On the field Pujols is an average player. I like the guy but saying he is the greatest of all-time is a bit of stretch IMO.

[DeltaBrave03]

Two times Pujols finished second to Bonds and another time third. Had Bonds not had that season perhaps Pujols jumps Beltre and wins another. Regardless Pujols should now have 4 MVPs. If Bonds Sosa Clemens Palmeiro Arod Manny Ortiz or any other player yet to be named having used PED's gets into the hall then they should all be in. I would also wager that there is atleast one player and probably more currently in the HOF who has used a PED before.

[SFP]

Out of the guys you mentioned only Arod IMO has a chance because he has a chance to show what he can do when 100% clean. If Bonds can't get in neither will any of those other guys and the media can't stand him.

[BuB]

[QUOTE=houstontxbrave;159422]

Actually BuB I went to high school with Thome, played baseball and basketball with him and actually do know his family, Limestone class of 88, I also played college baseball against him when he went to ICC and played SS. And am well aware of his brothers and their size and also he has a twin sister.

And I still stand by the before and after picture comment. Is it true no idea but look at before Bonds, McGwire photos and after photos and it is not a big stretch. All were not the mammoth ripped players they became later in their careers.

And it is pretty assumptive that only drug users talk with drug users and that no one else in the locker room would have any idea of what was going on.

But of course my comments are also assumptive, because I have zero proof, but I am only giving MY opinion. I think all baseball players in the steroid era were liars and cheats. And baseball got very rich and all players got very rich because the sport turned a blind eye to steriod use because it was beneficial to the sport. If you think "non users" were screwed money wise because of others use, fine but I think everyone got a whole lot more money then they would have gotten if this thing was clean.

Pretty cool you went to school and played ball with Thome. I am sure you were on some good teams. So then you understand it is very likely Jim was going to get alot bigger and stronger based on how tall he was, the physical size of his family, and his body structure (tall, athletic frame, and big shoulders). It doesn't always work that way but that is a factor when scouts evaluate players. Does he have the potential to get bigger. Some males can grow into their early 20's and muscles can continue to grow until your late 20's. You then can maintain your strength a few years before you start to lose strength even with training. Your body just doesn't naturally produce or grow muscles at the same rate it did when it was younger.

I am not questioning Bonds, McGwire, or any of the others caught as they are cheats and guilty. They deserve nothing, let alone the Hall of Fame. I think that players want as few people to know as possible. They want others to think they are natural and this strength gain is from hard work. Don't talk about it around players. I think that is one reason why you are hear more from informants, dealers, trainers, doctors, Balco, etc than you hear players talk. Yes some players probably talk to each other about what they take or how to take it or where to get it but those are the id!ots and jerks. I think it is very unlikely that all in the locker room know what a few on their team have done. They would know even less about other teams and their players. They may suspect but have no proof. If you call someone out with no proof you can't just give your opinion.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I just don't see how that makes clean players guilty. They have made the correct choices. They had the ability to play professional baseball where many others didn't. The overwhelming majority of H.S. and college players don't have this ability. Clean players have done nothing wrong. Your ex teamate Thome is not a liar or a jerk. He has character. He has earned his reputation as one of the good guys in baseball as Girardi did and so did hundreds of other clean players in any given season.

[Beninator]

[QUOTE=houstontxbrave;159422]

Actually BuB I went to high school with Thome, played baseball and basketball with him and actually do know his family, Limestone class of 88, I also played college baseball against him when he went to ICC and played SS. And am well aware of his brothers and their size and also he has a twin sister.

And I still stand by the before and after picture comment. Is it true no idea but look at before Bonds, McGwire photos and after photos and it is not a big stretch. All were not the mammoth ripped players they became later in their careers.

And it is pretty assumptive that only drug users talk with drug users and that no one else in the locker room would have any idea of what was going on.

But of course my comments are also assumptive, because I have zero proof, but I am only giving MY opinion. I think all baseball players in the steroid era were liars and cheats. And baseball got very rich and all players got very rich because the sport turned a blind eye to steriod use because it was beneficial to the sport. If you think "non users" were screwed money wise because of others use, fine but I think everyone got a whole lot more money then they would have gotten if this thing was clean.

I know where you are coming from Houston. I used to talk to Thome when he was in Class A and AA in the Indian organization. IMO he was scrawny during those days. A couple of years later I saw Thome in the Northwoods mall and he had bulked up considerably. So much so that I made a comment to him that he had lifted a lot of weights. I hope it isn't true as Thome is a legitimately nice guy who has done a lot of good things for the area. However, given the era in baseball, I have my personal doubts.

[BuB]

I know where you are coming from Houston. I used to talk to Thome when he was in Class A and AA in the Indian organization. IMO he was scrawny during those days. A couple of years later I saw Thome in the Northwoods mall and he had bulked up considerably. So much so that I made a comment to him that he had lifted a lot of weights. I hope it isn't true as Thome is a legitimately nice guy who has done a lot of good things for the area. However, given the era in baseball, I have my personal doubts.

Most men look nothing like they did when they were teenagers or 20 years old. Especially ones whose profession demands physical training and exercise. Just look at what Ronnie Wright does with alot of our guys in 2 years. It is pretty amazing what hard training does to these young men.