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I actually find it interesting that we skewer guys like McGwire, Bonds, and Clemens, since some of the evidence leaked out...
but others who are likely also doing it never get mentioned......
but I am convinced that most sluggers and many (75%) of all successful major leaguers did it based even on the sudden jump in production right around 1997-99 when the supply of powerful, secret, and readily available stuff from suppliers like Balco and others overseas became available...
check the numbers from guys like these...
and you can draw what conclusions you want based on this circumstantial evidence...
--Bret Boone whose homer numbers jumped from 4-12 per year before 1997, then suddenly 24-37 for 7 straight years after 1997.Then suddenly - injuries and career ends.
--Jorge Posada, a slender guy early on who hit 6-17 homers per season early in his career, but suddenly starting in the late 90's, his HR numbers ballooned to 28-30.
--Jason Giambi - 6-20 HR's per year before 1997 - then suddenly everyone in America could see the guy put on pathological amounts of muscle and started hitting 41, 43, and 48 HR per year...until of course after a few years the injuries kick in from the muscles being way too strong for the frame and tendons.
--the same even happened to Jason Giambi's little brother Jeremy Giambi, who suddenly burst on the scene hitting 2 and 3 HR his first couple seasons, then whacking 20 in 2002, then his salary jumped from $280,000 to $2 million and in no time injuries ended his career.
--and many others...even little skinny Jose Cruz (entered the majors listed as 160 lbs!), was suddenly bulked up in the late 90's and went from hitting 11-12 HR per year to hitting 31-34 a year for a few seasons then as the testing probably hindered the ability to use year-round, his numbers dropped and he was out of baseball...but not 'til he was able to crack the $4 mil per year zone.
like I said....for most players who didn't happen to get caught in the serendipitously leaked evidence from Balco...
the rest whose performances were nothing short of mini-McGwire-like changes late in the 90's is circumstantial but revealing.
I agree with T just because these guys were the superstars they're being front and center. I'm sure there are numerous players who were below average and steroids made them average, but no one cared. Mac and sosa didn't single handedly cause the huge spike in homers we saw that decade or so, and what proof do we have that pitchers weren't juicing as well I have reason to believe Gagne was for LA, and back in the dead ball era. I'm sure numerous pitchers were scuffing balls, using pine tar, etc. And any cubs fans that want to bash mac better remember their superstar sosa who suddenly forgot how to speak english when he went in front of congress
"How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal, and you have to be willing to work for it." - Jim Valvano
The steriod era McGwire spoke of that he wishes he did not play baseball in, whatever that time frame of that era, every single player regardless of what they want to say is guilty. Sorry but any record or acheivement by any player in that era deserves an *.
I also sincerely believe that major league baseball is guilty of fraud and should be suited by all individuals who purchased even one ticket during this steriod era. They knew exactly what was happening and condoned it. Trying to divert attention by saying it was juiced balls, it was their juiced players who hit home runs and brought money back to the activity... btw its not a sport anymore its wrestling, except wrestling admits its for entertainment, baseball has long passed the point of competition.
It is a sham and a disgusting fraud of an activity. Lies and more lies. Every single person associated with it is GUILTY.
most pitchers aren't really tempted to use steroids since it may give them too much extra bulk and hurt their precision and control...
but some pitchers are power pitchers (Dibble, Clemens, etc...) and some of them have been implicated and the evidence of their physical bulking up is suspicious..
I ran across this funny piece written by Rob Dibble for ESPN in 2002 -
he basically debunks the fact of 50% or more using steroids, but (now that he's out of the bigs) he says there should be testing...
He says this... "There's a general feeling that lots of players use steroids, but there's also
an understanding that the best don't need them (though maybe the
peripheral players think they need them). The guys who were on the juice
were often injured; they were peripheral players, not the superstars.
The best players in the game today -- A-Rod(etc).... are great athletes
who are far from being overly bulked-up. Not like a guy on juice. With Barry
Bonds, he's had a personal trainer. Is Bonds using steroids? It isn't
inconceivable, but it's very doubtful."
Brady Anderson - who has since been linked with steroids....is another guy who spent nearly a decade hitting only 10-20 homers a year, then suddenly in 1996 and beyond - jumped into the 50 per year range ....
True most pitchers wouldn't use PEDs to bulk up, but mac even said he began using them to heal quicker. I don't believe that they had nothing to do with increased power, but I believe it very possible pitchers used similar drugs to re-build and maintain muscle due to the tremendous wear on the arm. The whole thing is a mess and I don't know what the HOF will do. I honestly don't see how they can't say well you were the best of your era compared to other players so you're in, but it's also hard to let someone who did cheat to inflate stats.
"How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal, and you have to be willing to work for it." - Jim Valvano
illegal in the US?...well, we will get into a semantic issue, but steroids in and of themselves are NOT illegal and.......taking them is NOT illegal...
not by a long shot...but therein lies a fairly tricky issue...
that there are a lot of things about steroids that ARE illegal, but just taking them is NOT!!
I highly doubt that Mac had an Rx for anabolic steroids and was taking them under medically supervision.
JL are not respunsible foor the string of injunrys....
he didn't need one..someone else had likely broken the law to obtain them for him...but note nobody is even hinting that he be arrested, as he will not be charged...unless for perjury...
Nope he can't be charged for perjury he never lied. He wanted to tell congress what he did in '05 but senator davis would not grant immunity so his lawyers devised the famous phrase "im not here to talk about the past" to prevent him from lying along with not admitting and wrong doing.
"How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal, and you have to be willing to work for it." - Jim Valvano
he didn't need one..someone else had likely broken the law to obtain them for him...but note nobody is even hinting that he be arrested, as he will not be charged...unless for perjury...
You cannot be more wrong about this issue. I agree that no one is calling for him to be arrested, and people are typically not arrested for taking another person's Rx drugs. Steroids are illegal to take without a Rx. PERIOD. There is no argument about this. Marion Jones was arrested, just like Martha Stewart, for lying to a grand jury, but their previous actions were still illegal.
"The Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990 added anabolic steroids to the federal schedule of controlled substances, thereby criminalizing their non-medical use by those seeking muscle growth for athletic or cosmetic enhancement. It places steroids in the same legal class as barbiturates, ketamine and LSD precursors."
Illegal since 1990. If you want to point out that he took steroids legally for 1 year, then well done! It's ok!
Anabolic steroids are far different than corticosteroids. I don't know if that's part of what you were getting at with your first post.
"Under the Control Act, it is unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally to possess an anabolic steroid unless it was obtained directly, or pursuant to a valid prescription or order, from a practitioner, while acting in the course of his professional practice (or except as otherwise authorized). A first offense simple possession conviction is punishable by a term of imprisonment of up to one year and/or a minimum fine of $1,000. Simple possession by a person with a previous conviction for certain offenses, including any drug or narcotic crimes, must get imprisonment of at least 15 days and up to two years, and a minimum fine of $2,500, and individuals with two or more such previous convictions face imprisonment of not less than 90 days but not more than three years, and a minimum fine of $5,000. Distributing anabolic steroids, or possessing them with intent to distribute, is a federal felony. An individual who distributes or dispenses steroids, or possesses with intent to distribute or dispense, is punishable by up to five years in prison (with at least two additional years of supervised release) and/or a $250,000 fine ($1,000,000 if the defendant is other than an individual). Penalties are higher for repeat offenders."
As of 2005, steroids are a schedule III drug. Other schedule 3 drugs include ketamine and vicodin. These drugs cannot be obtained without a Rx.
"In the U.S., anabolic steroids are currently listed as Schedule III controlled substances under the Controlled Substances Act, which makes the first offense simple possession of such substances without a prescription a federal crime punishable by up to one year in prison"
duh....you didn't need to show me since I have already cited what's in that law...you just proved that it is illegal to be found in possession of them without the proper authorization ..or to possess them illegally........I knew that and said so plainly a couple times already in this thread...(see the quotes below)...
But I have said that there is NO law banning the taking of them....because if they are allowed with a prescription, then it surely cannot be illegal to take them...
....steroids in and of themselves are NOT illegal and.......taking them is NOT illegal...
not by a long shot...but therein lies a fairly tricky issue...
that there are a lot of things about steroids that ARE illegal, but just taking them is NOT!!
I think you'd have a very hard time showing evidence as such...
--again..taking them was not illegal..only the manufacture, distribution, or sale when unlicensed
..
Go back and read carefully -- as I have said...
it is NOT illegal to take them.....I have never seen such a law, and the only law you have cited bans steroids only in the same way that codeine, Valium, or even Ritalin are "banned"....they are banned from possession by people who are not properly licensed or authorized to have them.
But legislators know well enough that a law prohibiting the taking of such drugs would be virtually unenforcable and useless...and so the laws ban control the obtaining and trafficking of the drugs but not the taking of them.
I can talk freely and give interviews to Oprah and tell of taking the drugs, and I have no fear that the feds will come and arrest me, as taking them is not a violation of the law...
They might come and want to inspect my car or home, but unless they find me in possession of the drugs illegally, they can not and will not arrest me for taking them...period, that's all I have said and you have yet to cite anything to the contrary.
I won't argue other than make just one simple request--
it ought to be easy given it's "illegal to be taking" all those things that many, many people are KNOWN and admit to taking...or have been caught by drug testing...
Give me some examples of someone who was arrested or prosecuted or convicted of TAKING steroids...
NOTE-- TAKING, not having, posessing, buying, trafficking...
surely this is easy, because tons of people have been tested and failed, it happens all the time...
it has even been made widely known that guys like Manny, Palmeiro, etc...have failed tests and others like McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti have openly admitted it...
(please don't use examples of people who were busted for possession of them....I want an example of just ONE person anywhere who was found guilty of simply taking them....
duh....you didn't need to show me since I have already cited what's in that law...you just proved that it is illegal to be found in possession of them without the proper authorization ..or to possess them illegally........I knew that and said so plainly a couple times already in this thread...(see the quotes below)...
But I have said that there is NO law banning the taking of them....because if they are allowed with a prescription, then it surely cannot be illegal to take them...
Here-- read again what I have said--
and
Go back and read carefully -- as I have said...
it is NOT illegal to take them.....I have never seen such a law, and the only law you have cited bans steroids only in the same way that codeine, Valium, or even Ritalin are "banned"....they are banned from possession by people who are not properly licensed or authorized to have them.
But legislators know well enough that a law prohibiting the taking of such drugs would be virtually unenforcable and useless...and so the laws ban control the obtaining and trafficking of the drugs but not the taking of them.
I won't argue other than make just one simple request--
it ought to be easy given it's "illegal to be taking" all those things that many, many people are KNOWN and admit to taking...or have been caught by drug testing...
Give me some examples of someone who was arrested or prosecuted or convicted of TAKING steroids...
NOTE-- TAKING, not having, posessing, buying, trafficking...
surely this is easy, because tons of people have been tested and failed, it happens all the time...
it has even been made widely known that guys like Manny, Palmeiro, etc...have failed test and others like McGwire, Canseco, Caminiti have openly admitted it...
(please don't use examples of people who were busted for possession of them....I want an example of just ONE person anywhere who was found guilty of simply taking them....
you decide...I doubt I think I am right any more often than you think you are right...but then that's you right
but I do note unbekannt did modify/change his statement from the original one he made...
note his first statement after I said it is not necessarily illegal to be for McGwire to take steroids was...
"Illegal in the US - yes"
but now he has amended his statement to...
"Steroids are illegal to take without a Rx"
ahhhh....now we're talking....so now we're getting somewhere....
if you could just amend the statement further to
"illegal to be in possession of without proper authorization or precription" then we will be in agreement
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