Drake Head Coach Mark Phelps

[tornado]

There is a somewhat less than flattering story in the Des Moines Register today about Phelps,
and the academic success at the prior institutions where he worked. Seems they even had a Gary-Williams-like-stretch
of three straight years with a zero percent graduation rate....

So what was the Drake Athletic Director's response to this info??
"Bulldogs athletic director Sandy Hatfield Clubb said she was not aware of the North Carolina State graduation reports"

Hmmm... so she went to the school that she used to work at and hired one of their assistants,
and didn't do much of a check on his background?

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080422/SPORTS020403/804220405

"But the 2007 graduation reports - the most recent on file at the NCAA -
for Drake and North Carolina State show a wide difference.

Drake reported a 100 percent graduation rate for male basketball players who entered school in 2000-01.
In addition, the school reported a 44 percent rate for the four freshman classes entering from 1997-98 through 2000-01,
when former coach Kurt Kanaskie directed the program to an overall record of 46-76.

In contrast, North Carolina State's most recent report disclosed that no basketball player who
entered school in 2000-01 received a degree. The school reported a 27 percent graduation rate for the four
freshman classes entering from 1997-98 through 2000-01, when Herb Sendek directed the Wolfpack
to a 69-59 record. Phelps was director of basketball operations there from 1996 through 2000."



69-59 with zero percent graduation rate, and only one ACC finish above 4th?

[DUBulldog]

"One of the things that is most impressive is their GPA as a team is above a 3.0. I was completely amazed and impressed when I heard that from Herb Sendek last week."

Hatfield Clubb, who was an assistant athletic director at Arizona State for two months after Sendek and his staff were hired there, said in a later interview that the team grade-point average reported to her was something "I never saw at Arizona State in 16 years."

.

[tornado]

Don't worry, as it seems some coaches have the ability to get a widespread reputation
of "being able to graduate all their players" even when it is complete bogus.
Take Bobby Knight for example. If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone recite
the false mantra that Bobby Knight's players all graduate, I'd be wealthy.

But here are the actual facts....

For the players entering in 2001 and the data stretches from 2001 all the way through 2007
(a six year span), Bobby Knight didn't do so well at Texas Tech.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2007/700.pdf

Over that span (freshmen entering in 2001) the Black players at Texas Tech had a 38% graduation rate.
The White players were better but there weren't many of them so they didn't affect the average that much,
and Bobby Knight's overall Graduation rate in that interval was 40% and his adjusted Graduation Success Rate was 44%
way, way, way below the national acverage and way below the average of almost every other sport at Texas Tech.
Now...every single one of these players in this data is a BOBBY KNIGHT recruit, as they all entered as freshmen
after 2001 when Knight took over at Texas Tech.

If Jim Les' numbers were this horrible, we'd be hearing clammoring from the press and the anti-Bradley cult.
It just amazes me that the facts prove Knight does NOT even come close to "graduating all his players"
and he can't use the alibi Gary Williams uses, since very few of Bobby Knight's players at Texas Tech were
NBA guys who left without getting their degree in order to play in the NBA!

By the way, Jim Les' rates over that same span ARE affected by several players who left in 2001-2002 before he got there
and yet the numbers still are way, way better, with Black players GSR 75% and overall 63%.
The numbers will rise to nearly 100% just as soon as 2008 data is included, as the 2001 data will fall off.



Hopefully this will BUST three of the most prevalent and faulty myths in all of college basketball-


1) that Bobby Knight's players always graduate.
Maybe he did a little better at IU but still no better than average even though at IU he had the recruiting prowess to essentially get who he wanted and get players who could do better academically,and not have to take chances on marginal students.

2) that Bobby Knight never got in trouble. Ha,ha,he was in trouble all the time with his bullying, choking, and verbal attackes on students, press, and even bystanders like the security guard in Puerto Rico that Knight punched out just for doing his job. In fact that's why he was fired at IU - a pattern of repeated misbehavior, abuse, and violations of the zero-tolerance, and the pattern even continued at Texas Tech, as there were several incidents that were kept a little bit hushed but the news media got wind of a few of his outbursts and behavior problems.

3) that Indiana does and always has run a clean program and that integrity is foremost.
Ha,ha,ha....what rock did you just crawl out from under if you believe this? The past year or so has proven that the brass and the fans...all the way down to the coach put only THREE things in the "foremost" category,
recruiting 5-Star players, and wins, wins, wins, and avoid getting caught...that's all.
Integrity is and always has been secondary to those three.

[TRIMAN]

Don't worry, as it seems some coaches have the ability to get a widespread reputation
of "being able to graduate all their players" even when it is complete bogus.
Take Bobby Knight for example. If I had a nickel for every time I heard someone recite
the false mantra that Bobby Knight's players all graduate, I'd be wealthy.

But here are the actual facts....

For the players entering in 2001 and the data stretches from 2001 all the way through 2007
(a six year span), Bobby Knight didn't do so well at Texas Tech.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/inst2007/700.pdf

Over that span (freshmen entering in 2001) the Black players at Texas Tech had a 38% graduation rate.
The White players were better but there weren't many of them so they didn't affect the average that much,
and Bobby Knight's overall Graduation rate in that interval was 40% and his adjusted Graduation Success Rate was 44%
way, way, way below the national acverage and way below the average of almost every other sport at Texas Tech.
Now...every single one of these players in this data is a BOBBY KNIGHT recruit, as they all entered as freshmen
after 2001 when Knight took over at Texas Tech.

If Jim Les' numbers were this horrible, we'd be hearing clammoring from the press and the anti-Bradley cult.
It just amazes me that the facts prove Knight does NOT even come close to "graduating all his players"
and he can't use the alibi Gary Williams uses, since very few of Bobby Knight's players at Texas Tech were
NBA guys who left without getting their degree in order to play in the NBA!

By the way, Jim Les' rates over that same span ARE affected by several players who left in 2001-2002 before he got there
and yet the numbers still are way, way better, with Black players GSR 75% and overall 63%.
The numbers will rise to nearly 100% just as soon as 2008 data is included, as the 2001 data will fall off.



Hopefully this will BUST three of the most prevalent and faulty myths in all of college basketball-


1) that Bobby Knight's players always graduate.
Maybe he did a little better at IU but still no better than average even though at IU he had the recruiting prowess to essentially get who he wanted and get players who could do better academically,and not have to take chances on marginal students.

2) that Bobby Knight never got in trouble. Ha,ha,he was in trouble all the time with his bullying, choking, and verbal attackes on students, press, and even bystanders like the security guard in Puerto Rico that Knight punched out just for doing his job. In fact that's why he was fired at IU - a pattern of repeated misbehavior, abuse, and violations of the zero-tolerance, and the pattern even continued at Texas Tech, as there were several incidents that were kept a little bit hushed but the news media got wind of a few of his outbursts and behavior problems.

3) that Indiana does and always has run a clean program and that integrity is foremost.
Ha,ha,ha....what rock did you just crawl out from under if you believe this? The past year or so has proven that the brass and the fans...all the way down to the coach put only THREE things in the "foremost" category,
recruiting 5-Star players, and wins, wins, wins, and avoid getting caught...that's all.
Integrity is and always has been secondary to those three.

Knight never had a recruiting or academic problem at IU. You shouldn't compare Sampson to Knight. At IU: "Knight's program never was placed under NCAA sanctions, and his players achieved a graduation rate of 98 percent..."

I think the school has as much (or more) to do with graduation rates as/than the coach. I can't see Drake suddenly recruiting players that have no intention of graduating.

It's OK to hate Knight but don't alter people's agruements to rip him apart. He's a jerk and that's enough reason for you to not like him.

[tornado]

I would like to see the NCAA data that says Knight graduated 98%, as I have presented the data that quite clearly states the contrary.
Once we get past the Bobby Knight worship and see the facts over the past decade or so, then the truth is indeed hard for some IU people to accept...so I understand.

Here's the data from Bobby Knight's years (last half decade) at IU
78% graduation rate for those entering school 1996-2000
and 50% for those entering in 00-01 the final year Bobby was at IU.
... roughly the national average, not better, not worse.
D-I average was 77%, but scroll up and see that Mo's recruits are in the bunch from BRADLEY
that scored a 90% Graduation Success Rate in this report.

http://www.bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=45772#post45772

Believe the spin or believe the precise data...those are really your only two options.
Like I said, once Knight left IU and no longer had the recruiting strength to land the best kids, then like every other D-I coach he had to start taking some more marginal kids and his numbers on graduation dropped way, way down, and are now sub-50% (see above). Also- coincidentally (?) his win-loss numbers also suffered.
At Texas Tech Knight was 154-97 overall, and was 64 - 53 after his 4th year once he had a roster of only his own players, and his Big 12 numbers are even more pitiful,
over 8 years in the Big 12 he was 51-68 (way worse than Quin Snyder numbers) with one last place finish and
only one finish higher than 4th (3rd one time).
Had he not benefitted form some strange media and cult-fan like worship, I have to think he'd have been out of Lubbock soon anyway.

[Braves4Life]

If Jim Les' numbers were this horrible, we'd be hearing clammoring from the press and the anti-Bradley cult.......

By the way, Jim Les' rates over that same span ARE affected by several players who left in 2001-2002 before he got there
and yet the numbers still are way, way better, with Black players GSR 75% and overall 63%.
The numbers will rise to nearly 100% just as soon as 2008 data is included, as the 2001 data will fall off.

Great post T! I have almost always been proud of the student-athletes that Bradley recruits and would prefer to watch and support a team of great kids that are a credit to BU but may be "physically challenged" on the court. As long as the effort is there and the kids are good kids I will always support The Program. If Les put up these kind of graduation numbers or fielded a team witha sub-par GPA I would be first in line to demand his firing.....even if we were a consistent Top 25 program in the ratings.

[Scouter]

Hopefully this will BUST three of the most prevalent and faulty myths in all of college basketball-

2) that Bobby Knight never got in trouble. Ha,ha,he was in trouble all the time with his bullying, choking, and verbal attackes on students, press, and even bystanders like the security guard in Puerto Rico that Knight punched out just for doing his job. In fact that's why he was fired at IU - a pattern of repeated misbehavior, abuse, and violations of the zero-tolerance, and the pattern even continued at Texas Tech, as there were several incidents that were kept a little bit hushed but the news media got wind of a few of his outbursts and behavior problems.

If this is such a "prevalant and faultly myth" why are all of those things well known to be true? Now, if you can prove that Bob Knight got in trouble because of recruiting violations, I might understand your point on this one.

[Chico]

What a way to welcome the newest MVC coach. I say welcome to, IMO, the best mid-major conference in the country, Coach Phelps.

[tornado]

if you can prove that Bob Knight got in trouble because of recruiting violations...

proving this is generally impossible unless you can get taped phone conversations, phone records, etc... (see Bruce Pearl, Kelvin Sampson).
What we know is that when recruiting violations are uncovered at various schools, that the evidence usually comes out by pure chance, proving that it is likely that as Kelvin Sampson says, "everyone" is doing it, but only a few get caught.

But let's ask this question...
If I drive for 10 years and never get a ticket, then am I due some kind of award, a special plaque just for doing what was the basic standard, keeping the rules?
Of course not, so if a coach never gets caught with recruiting violations, then isn't that what is supposed to happen. Why do we applaud a guy just because he does what the majority of coach do, keep the rules?

[J Money]

2) that Bobby Knight never got in trouble. Ha,ha,he was in trouble all the time with his bullying, choking, and verbal attackes on students, press, and even bystanders like the security guard in Puerto Rico that Knight punched out just for doing his job. In fact that's why he was fired at IU - a pattern of repeated misbehavior, abuse, and violations of the zero-tolerance, and the pattern even continued at Texas Tech, as there were several incidents that were kept a little bit hushed but the news media got wind of a few of his outbursts and behavior problems.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that Bobby Knight never got in trouble. In fact, I think that to many people he is more well known for his trouble off the court than his success on. but no one has portrayed him to be a saint. He ranks as one of the greatest college coaches of all time and never had a recruiting violation. Say what you want about the guy but his record speaks for itself.

[tornado]

his record speaks for itself.

That it does...

http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=80155#post80155post80155

[J Money]

That it does...
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread...80155post80155

That's great. Are we just overlooking his record at Indiana? Is Coach K not a great coach because he had a rough start and almost got canned from Duke?

[tornado]

Great Coach, great person = This guy or This guy

Everything else I have posted are simple facts and stats, no opinion, just the facts.

[Braves4Life]

Great Coach, great person = This guy or This guy

Everything else I have posted are simple facts and stats, no opinion, just the facts.

What about this guy?!

[tornado]

Definitely