The legacy of Title IX

[MacabreMob]

Since I'm clearly offending many, this will be my final post in this thread. If I ever have a daughter who wants to play basketball, I will support her in every way I can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x28sPqh8_Wg

Dude - you are just trying to "flame" people with that video.

But now we all know - it is ALL ABOUT DUNKING.

-whatever-

[MacabreMob]

No, you wouldn't go to a women's game if you are hoping to see dunks.
It is a different game. It is possible to learn to appreciate the women's game, as I have in the last few years. It will never draw fans like the men's game does, and will never achieve the same level of athleticism. But there will always be a place for some women's athletics.

I am just against what Title IX does.

Colleges are forced to create women's sports like badminton and other silly sports, and award scholarships to women who have never played the sport before, just to reach compliance with the tenets of Title IX. At the same time they give full athletic scholarships for artificial sports like badminton, they are eliminating popular men's sports like soccer (Illinois, Illinois State, and many large football schools do not have soccer), swimming, and wrestling. No wonder US athletes are losing ground to international athletes in many sports.

Understand I am not a big fan of Title IX (imagine that). But I only aske cause I don't know... we are losing ground to international athletes in men's sports... but since we have added many new (artificial) female sports, have we gained any ground with female international athletes? (the women's soccer winning the Gold a few years ago... any other notable wins?)

[SFP]

Women's softball, track and field, Volleyball (they do look great in those bikini) outdoor.

It is also adding a component to our society. Women in the past were asked to play only individual sports (i.e. figure skating, tennis) now with Title IX they are playing team sports and learning what men have all along been doing co-existing without being catty. The younger women are going to learn how to play nice with each other and it will make a difference in our work force and society in a whole. How many times have you seen women in the workforce nothelp each other out and frankly be reallly mean to each other? I believe Titile IX will help IMHO.

I hope I did not just open another large can of worms.

[MacabreMob]

Women's softball, track and field, Volleyball (they do look great in those bikini) outdoor.

It is also adding a component to our society. Women in the past were asked to play only individual sports (i.e. figure skating, tennis) now with Title IX they are playing team sports and learning what men have all along been doing co-existing without being catty. The younger women are going to learn how to play nice with each other and it will make a difference in our work force and society in a whole. How many times have you seen women in the workforce nothelp each other out and frankly be reallly mean to each other? I believe Titile IX will help IMHO.

I hope I did not just open another large can of worms.

I think those are some very good points SFP. Thanks for bringing them into the conversation.

[IlliBraves]

I believe we will keep seeing more of these kinds of cuts, as state schools see funding cuts from the state, and athletic budgets feel the pinch.

University of Rhode Island cutting men's swimming, men's tennis and field hockey--
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/...=NCAAHeadlines

Men's swimming is often one of the first to get the axe. In Illinois, U of I, Bradley and NIU have all cut their men's programs, although BU didn't cut theres for Title IX reasons. I actually knew of a coach on a rival club in the Peoria area who had a full ride to Illinois before it cut its program. A team I was being recruited by, Ohio University, cut its team last year, and they were conference contenders. Sad.

[IlliBraves]

Women's softball, track and field, Volleyball (they do look great in those bikini) outdoor.

It is also adding a component to our society. Women in the past were asked to play only individual sports (i.e. figure skating, tennis) now with Title IX they are playing team sports and learning what men have all along been doing co-existing without being catty. The younger women are going to learn how to play nice with each other and it will make a difference in our work force and society in a whole. How many times have you seen women in the workforce nothelp each other out and frankly be reallly mean to each other? I believe Titile IX will help IMHO.

I hope I did not just open another large can of worms.

Now, I'm never a big fan of this whole "college sports is a business" thing, but...men's sports bring in all the money, and if we have to be fair and equal, than the women's programs should have to pull down some money as well. Essentially, women's sports are a loss financially. Granted, so are many men's programs (excluding football and basketball), but I certainly don't think a men's team should be axed just so we can watch women's field hockey. I personally don't believe in making things "fair". Being "fair" creates an unrealistic ideal. As we've all been told since birth, life isn't fair.

Also, adding to what you have to say about women in the workplace...I think that's more of a byproduct of this affirmative action bull crap. People should get jobs based on performance, not on their anatomy or race.

[tornado]

I'd love to take that bet ... could a game be arranged?

we had a discussion a couple years ago on this board ....

what we showed was that many if not most college womens' teams, even the best of the best like Tennessee and UConn hire on-campus men to play against the women so they can have atough practice competition.
These practice teams, sometimes called scout teams, are the subject of serious controversy, since there are womens advocates claiming that by using men to practice against, this technique robs other women of possible scholarships and walk on spots...

Read this and numerous other such articles that even try to get the NCAA to intervene and stop the women fromm practicing against the males.

http://media.www.dailyorange.com/media/storage/paper522/news/2007/02/21/Sports/No.Boys.Allowed.Ncaa.Might.Forbid.Womens.Hoops.From.Practicing.With.Men-2732299.shtml

But here's the point I am making....
Most of the males used as scout team members are NOT great players.
they are generally average kids who might have played or even didn't play high school basketball - but kids right off the college campus/NOT ATHLETES at the college level, but they are bigger and stronger than the women, thus giving the women what they want in practice, tough, strong opponents.

BUT-- here's the catch....time and time again....guys who play on these scout teams easily beat the womens teams...and I MNEA EASILY!!
In fact, it is so routine that if the women CAN beat the guys, they dismiss the guys and look for different guys who are even better.

This causes me to be 100% convinced that a GOOD high school team WOULD beat most of the TOP college teams.
As to whether that translates into also beating a WNBA team...well...
I think it is quite likely they could, especially if you pick a HS team like the one Derrick Rose played on or Kevin Love played on.
The women would get exactly ZERO rebounds against such a team and would NOT be able to even get a decent shot.

Feel free to disagree because I know we'll never see the possibility of a HS team play a WNBA team any more than we'll ever see a top pro play a Bobby Riggs again.

[SFP]

Now, I'm never a big fan of this whole "college sports is a business" thing, but...men's sports bring in all the money, and if we have to be fair and equal, than the women's programs should have to pull down some money as well. Essentially, women's sports are a loss financially. Granted, so are many men's programs (excluding football and basketball), but I certainly don't think a men's team should be axed just so we can watch women's field hockey. I personally don't believe in making things "fair". Being "fair" creates an unrealistic ideal. As we've all been told since birth, life isn't fair.

Also, adding to what you have to say about women in the workplace...I think that's more of a byproduct of this affirmative action bull crap. People should get jobs based on performance, not on their anatomy or race.

IlliBrave where's the connection between what I said and affirmative action???? Workplace "bull crap" is a result of affirmative action???? You just have not been out in the workforce long enough or at all to know what the work force is really like. BTW job performance may be one way to get ahead but who you know and kiss up to also can work pretty darn well.

[IlliBraves]

IlliBrave where's the connection between what I said and affirmative action???? Workplace "bull crap" is a result of affirmative action???? You just have not been out in the workforce long enough or at all to know what the work force is really like. BTW job performance may be one way to get ahead but who you know and kiss up to also can work pretty darn well.

I don't have to have much experience to already have first hand knowledge of what goes on. Who do you think gets all the scholarships? Let's just say not me . Anyways, yeah, kissing up will get you ahead, but I'm just saying that it shouldn't.

[IlliBraves]

we had a discussion a couple years ago on this board ....

what we showed was that many if not most college womens' teams, even the best of the best like Tennessee and UConn hire on-campus men to play against the women so they can have atough practice competition.
These practice teams, sometimes called scout teams, are the subject of serious controversy, since there are womens advocates claiming that by using men to practice against, this technique robs other women of possible scholarships and walk on spots...

Read this and numerous other such articles that even try to get the NCAA to intervene and stop the women fromm practicing against the males.

http://media.www.dailyorange.com/media/storage/paper522/news/2007/02/21/Sports/No.Boys.Allowed.Ncaa.Might.Forbid.Womens.Hoops.From.Practicing.With.Men-2732299.shtml

But here's the point I am making....
Most of the males used as scout team members are NOT great players.
they are generally average kids who might have played or even didn't play high school basketball - but kids right off the college campus/NOT ATHLETES at the college level, but they are bigger and stronger than the women, thus giving the women what they want in practice, tough, strong opponents.

BUT-- here's the catch....time and time again....guys who play on these scout teams easily beat the womens teams...and I MNEA EASILY!!
In fact, it is so routine that if the women CAN beat the guys, they dismiss the guys and look for different guys who are even better.

This causes me to be 100% convinced that a GOOD high school team WOULD beat most of the TOP college teams.
As to whether that translates into also beating a WNBA team...well...
I think it is quite likely they could, especially if you pick a HS team like the one Derrick Rose played on or Kevin Love played on.
The women would get exactly ZERO rebounds against such a team and would NOT be able to even get a decent shot.

Feel free to disagree because I know we'll never see the possibility of a HS team play a WNBA team any more than we'll ever see a top pro play a Bobby Riggs again.

This is absolutely true. I actually had a friend who played for my high school's team. He was good, not great. He averaged somewhere around 8 points a game and had a couple of offers from division III schools. He talked to me about playing on such a scout team at Purdue, not sure if he ever did it or not.

[thefish7]

It's a complicated issue, though I sort of support Title IX because college sports should be about giving students an opportunity to play... Not so much about we fans getting to enjoy watching them. Without Title IX female students wouldn't have much of a chance to play sports at the college level, or at least, it doesn't seem like they would, because not many of us pay to watch them.

[Scouter]

we had a discussion a couple years ago on this board ....

what we showed was that many if not most college womens' teams, even the best of the best like Tennessee and UConn hire on-campus men to play against the women so they can have atough practice competition.
These practice teams, sometimes called scout teams, are the subject of serious controversy, since there are womens advocates claiming that by using men to practice against, this technique robs other women of possible scholarships and walk on spots...

Read this and numerous other such articles that even try to get the NCAA to intervene and stop the women fromm practicing against the males.

http://media.www.dailyorange.com/media/storage/paper522/news/2007/02/21/Sports/No.Boys.Allowed.Ncaa.Might.Forbid.Womens.Hoops.From.Practicing.With.Men-2732299.shtml

But here's the point I am making....
Most of the males used as scout team members are NOT great players.
they are generally average kids who might have played or even didn't play high school basketball - but kids right off the college campus/NOT ATHLETES at the college level, but they are bigger and stronger than the women, thus giving the women what they want in practice, tough, strong opponents.

BUT-- here's the catch....time and time again....guys who play on these scout teams easily beat the womens teams...and I MNEA EASILY!!
In fact, it is so routine that if the women CAN beat the guys, they dismiss the guys and look for different guys who are even better.

This causes me to be 100% convinced that a GOOD high school team WOULD beat most of the TOP college teams.
As to whether that translates into also beating a WNBA team...well...
I think it is quite likely they could, especially if you pick a HS team like the one Derrick Rose played on or Kevin Love played on.
The women would get exactly ZERO rebounds against such a team and would NOT be able to even get a decent shot.

Feel free to disagree because I know we'll never see the possibility of a HS team play a WNBA team any more than we'll ever see a top pro play a Bobby Riggs again.

Bradley's women's team uses a few guys from around campus to practice with them. Not sure how they fare, though. Then again, our women's team isn't exactly UConn or Tennessee.

[TheAsianSensation]

Football is obviously messing up the numbers.

I'd like to see Title IX implemented fully - with an exemption for football scholarships.

Why can't we get the resources together to just implement this one exemption? There's probably a few too many "extremists" who argue football shouldn't be exempt, and it might be a bad PR move, so there you go.

It's so obvious that football messes up all the numbers too. Depriving men of playing a non-football sport is not the goal people had in mind here.

[ChewaBrave]

Lot of talk about the woman's game being inferior or what have you an the lack of funding or the impossibility of women's sporting becoming more favorable to the masses - but haven't people already mentioned teams like UCONN, and TENN, Louisville, etc. I mean some of these games pulled in three times Bradley Admissions. I mean you're talking nearly 20k people for UCONN vs. Louisville. Essentially, you cannot make the argument that womens sports will always be unappealing simply because they are to you. Lot of people talk about not wanting to watch a WNBA game because there are no dunks or whatever, well frankly, i don't want to watch a NBA game, because well, it blows. There is nothing more ridiculous than watching NBA basketball. Personal opinions are amazing, but outright saying that the teams cannot become popular despite evidence that some already have is just plain silly.

[tornado]

a recent article said only TWO D-I womens basketball programs were in the black, UConn and Tennessee, all the rest lost money.
Someone has to cover all those losses that Title IX requires schools to suffer, and guess who....yup the mens programs and the taxpayers at times.