Bobby Hill Ineligible?

[Double D]

A new followup article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch...
Bobby Hill could be ruled permanently ineligible............
"Athletics directors from two universities and one junior college (SEMO - where Johnny Hill plays and Lincoln JC & ISU where Bobby Hill has played)
are reacting to an admission by former basketball coach Floyd Irons that he paid to house, clothe and feed two Illinois brothers so they could play for Vashon High School, a basketball powerhouse.

As a consequence, Bobby and Johnny Hill, of Alton, could be banned from playing college basketball, the directors said....
They could be ruled permanently ineligible..."

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/othersports/story/9A7DC16BF60CCCDC862573F400396C5B?OpenDocument

Southeast Missouri plans on sitting out Johnny Hill in anticipation that he
might be deemed ineligible and if so, it could cost them a forfeit.
Will Lincoln College follow suit, and will ISU pull their scholarship offer?

http://www.missourinet.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=3209796C-A01B-5692-14408C9D31DBC0A7

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/jeffgordon/story/7CC447FF6679FC9D862573E8005B7967?OpenDocument

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/stl..._floyd_i_1.php

IMO this would be a travesty. I agree that you have to discourage this type of behavior, no doubt.

But to take away the opportunity to get an education by the kids who were taken advange of would be wrong IMO.

[mike radigan]

IMO this would be a travesty. I agree that you have discourage this type of behavior, no doubt.

But to take away the opportunity to get an education by the kids who were taken advange of would be wrong IMO.

I completely disagree. These "kids" know exactly what they are doing. I never did like schools being punished unless they are party to the cheating. Punish involved coaches and players. It has to hurt the cheaters before they stop.

[Double D]

I completely disagree. These "kids" know exactly what they are doing. I never did like schools being punished unless they are party to the cheating. Punish involved coaches and players. It has to hurt the cheaters before they stop.

I would tend to agree with your line of thinking. I am totally a "personal responsibility" type person.

But, my guess is that when this stuff began, just using Bobby Hill as an example, he was what maybe 16 years old.

I dunno, maybe I am way off base.

[tornado]

Of course there will be obligatory delay until the case is fully researched, even though the improper benefits were 6-7 years ago!!
But if as alledged, Bobby Hill got four full years of benefits in high school, then how does this differ from any other "amateur" athlete getting paid as a professional for several years then trying to go to college and claiming he's still an amateur.
There's even an issue of honesty and integrity, since just accepting his scholarship (as Hill did at ISU and at Lincoln College) required him to answer questions and attest that he has NOT received improper gifts, but now we know he certainly HAS and clearly MUST have known he has, so the issue of honesty and hiding these violations has to come up as well.
Sadly, there is almost no other place to draw the line than to deem both of the Hills ineligible for four years of college. Those are the NCAA rules.
It doesn't prohibit Hill from going and playing NAIA or NCCAA, which has different rules.

http://www.thenccaa.org/division1.html

or even going to play pro ball (CBA, Europe), but I agree with Mike Radigan....rules are rules.
I know I am a bit cynical, but how come whever the issue of rules comes up in regards to Bradley, EVERYONE seems to come down strongly
that BU must follow the rules and they deserve the penalty they get, as in the POB situation, etc....

Then just as soon as some other school (especially a BCS school) gets caught in a rules issue....we start hearing the mea culpa's claiming that it just isn't fair to the kids if we follow the rules.
Clear double standard, but watch it unfold......I can already show you comments by ISU fans saying they should NOT apply the rules to Bobby Hill as it would be unfair.

[Murph]

IMO this would be a travesty. I agree that you have to discourage this type of behavior, no doubt.

But to take away the opportunity to get an education by the kids who were taken advange of would be wrong IMO.

Too bad for them, they new what they were doing.....

[tornado]

Amazingly, Bobby Hill's current coach at Lincoln College has posted on the ISU board, as follows...

"I probably shouldn't do this but I am going to anyway. I am Bobby Hill's current coach at Lincoln College. There
are some things being posted here that I know are not accurate and I would like to clear them up.
1) Bobby Hill was never ineligible at ISU. The academic staff and Coach Jankovich met and felt after conferring that Bobby would
be better served shoring up one specific academic in a situation with smaller class sizes. Coach J met with Bobby and because
Bobby trusts Coach J he agreed to leave ISU. Make no mistake, Bobby loves ISU and misses his teammates. He is working very
hard to rejoin them.
2) The reporter at the St Louis Post Dispatch is doing his best to blow this situation up and sell papers. While the story about
Coach Irons is quite sensational and it apparently could destroy the legacy of the Vashon dynasty, it most likely will not be a
situation that leads to either of the Hill brothers being declared pros. They were 14 to 16 years old when this deal was cut. They
were told where they would live and what school they would go to and they did. That is what kids do.
3) There are kids all over this country living with HS coaches, aunties, friends, and even ritzy prep schools and boarding schools.
Their rent and meals are being provided. As a matter of fact almost every NCAA D1 athlete is recieving everything Bobby and
Johnny Hill allegedly recieved. Are they now pros? Also, please remember, all names are blacked out on the document and the
paper is surmising that it is the Hill brothers. I never knew them in HS so I don't really know where they lived or about any
arrangements.
4) Their father is a man of very limited means. Their mother left when they were very young and their father did his best to feed
and clothe them. He apparently crossed paths with Coach Irons and found a place where his boys would be fed, housed and
clothed with future promises of college opportunities. Not much more any father could ask for when he really didn't now where
money for the next meal was coming from. I know it is hard for some to understand but poverty isn't just in 3rd world countries.
It is on our doorstep and believe me, from what I know, the Hills know first hand. I hope you will keep Bobby and Johnny in your
thoughts.
5) Bobby is doing a great job for us and he can't wait to be a Redbird again!!!!"

http://redbirdfan.com/msgforum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8896&p=108812#p108812

Unfortunately, the Lynx coach also seems to leave out some of the well established facts.
The Hills' names are being prominently mentioned since the story centers on the huge monetary value to the gifts (rent, utilities, beds, TV's, etc...) given to a pair of brothers from Alton who were actively recruited (against state assoc. rules) and brought to live in the school district (also against the rules) and had lots of freebies given to them (even more serious violations), and the Hills are the only players who even come close to fitting that description even thought the names were blacked out. Also further confirmation appears to have come from other quotes from Irons and the Hills' dad. Regardless, there is virtually no doubt we are talking about Johnny and Bobby Hill.
AND, he is dead, dead wrong if he is suggesting most high school basketball players get what the Hills got! Hey, I even have two boys who played high school basketball and not only have my kids never even been given nor accepted even a free t-shirt or pair of shoes, none of their teammates ever have, and I can assure you that 99.99% of high school athletes never have.
ONLY big time talents at the top, most competitive schools like Vashon have ever been given this kind of (upwards of $25,000 of benefits) illegal payments.
BUT....even if many kids did get this stuff, that cannot possibly make it right, and serves to only make the severity of it more wrong.
I say the rules are the rules, and professionalism is one of the worse plagues inside of this level of amateur sports, and needs to be identified and removed.

Also, Coach Irons is voluntarily cooperating and revealing this info, and given how damaging it is, I doubt he's making it up, as he and Vashon are the ones who will suffer the most from its revelation. The St. Louis Post Dispatch is not being irresponsible, as they are carefully reporting exactly what they know, and this has been a long (1-2 years) story that has played itself out over the past few years. This is not a witch hunt, and by even claiming that it is suggests Coach McCallum wants to see this stuff simply swept under the rug instead of getting the facts right and properly penalizing those who may have committed serious violations.

Note this story from a year ago, proving that other schools have been trying to get the MHSAA to take these allegations seriously for several years!

http://www.rftstl.com/2007-03-07/news/a-vashon-cross-state-rival-cries-foul-over-04-championship-game/

[BUBraves06]

So it seems like the coach from Lincoln is saying "It's going on all over the country, they're just kids and their dad is poor, so they shouldn't be punished." What a joke, how can that guy be serious.

[bu fan 9]

Let the cover up begin.

[Murph]

Vet, where are you.....In a van down by the river?

[mike radigan]

Vet, where are you.....In a van down by the river?

Vet has never registered here and doubt he knows about it.

[Murph]

Vet has never registered here and doubt he knows about it.

I bet he does know about bradleyfans, he lurks quite often on the other ISU fan moderated board, now that it's almost dead he surely sneaks over here for a look every now and then.

[houstontxbrave]

If indeed the post was submitted by BJ McCallum I think it was a poor choice to post what is essentially his opinion on the subject in a very public forum.

He is questioning the intergrity of the reporter with the Post Dispatch, he is infuring that this type of behavior is rampant all over the country and he is trying to justify the behavior by Irons because of the situation that Mr Hill is in as a person. Seems to me it would have been in best if he kept his "opinions" to himself.

He is treading down a very slippery slope.

[BU_EMT128]

In my opinion, yes, maybe they were steered into the situation at 14-15, but no one can say that after a few years they did not know this was wrong. But instead of step up and say, "This is what happened, this is who did it, what are my options now?" They decided to keep quiet, undoubtedly sign paperwork at some point saying they had never violated any NCAA rules and continue playing. A ban from basketball is a bit much, however a lengthy suspension in my opinion is perfectly justified.

[it's boogie time]

I think this happens more than we would want to believe, but not to the extent that it looks like this case is presenting.

Am I suppose to believe that Coach Irons got no return on his investment financially from the coaches that recruited his players?

[tornado]

Highly successful high school coaches do have ways of benefiting greatly from their success.
Look at the stuff that has gone on in Chicago where certain successful high school coaches
are hired and paid BIG BUCKS just to do clinics at such schools as Kansas and Iowa.
They also find ways of doing speaking and personal engagements for shoe companies, they also sometimes benefit
from their association with the AAU folks and recruiting gurus (all of whom seems to always have cash to display and spend)
and more often than you might think........
they get paid positions on some colleges' coaching staffs like Kansas, and Illinois State (Paris Parham).
So....if Irons was willing to spend well over $25,000 just on these two kids, then it was so they could help
boost his success and keep his $90,000+ per year job and enable him to get other opportunities for income.

We will probably never know the full extent of the rules-breaking, but if just a fraction of what we already know
is true, then this whole scenario is neck-deep in corruption and violations, and I, for one, think it probably
is way, way even worse, and probably involves other schools and coaches. Remember the Kelvin Sampson
line......"I only did it to remain competitive since everyone else is doing it..."