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  • Loyola

    I recall discussions a couple years ago that Bradley should have hired Jim Whitesell instead of Jim Les. In fact, silliness like that on other message boards is what lead the establishment of BradleyFans.com in January, 2005, because I thought such discussions went too far with unmerited rips of Jim Les and the Bradley administration, and were ridiculous in assuming Whitesell would have been a better choice just because he was an established coach at D2 and D3.

    Well, Whitesell had mediocre seasons his first 2 years, and then won 21 games last year (2 were against D2 teams, so for the purposes of the RPI, they were 19-11), though they play a schedule each year that cannot be compared with Bradley's, and he inherited some pretty good players that made up those first 3 teams.
    Whitesell's record in his first 3 years against D1 was:
    2004-2005 12-17 RPI 209
    2005-2006 17-11 RPI 138
    2006-2007 19-11 RPI 101

    Now Whitesell is in his 4th year. Blake Schilb and all the other players he inherited are now gone. This could be considered Whitesell's first team comprised mainly of his own players. But this year, Loyola is 2-4, but one win is against a Division 2 team (Robert Morris), and the other win is against Eastern Illinois (by far, the worst team in Div 1). Overall, Loyola has looked terrible. Their RPI is 241, much lower than Bradley has ever been under Jim Les, and by far, the worst RPI in the Horizon League. They have lost to Bradley, Northern Iowa, Western Michigan, and Purdue by an average of 13 points. I thought Loyola looked very poorly coached in the game Bradley played there. Jim Les easily outcoached Whitesell, and Bradley expolited Loyola's weaknesses as the game went on, and Loyola became inept at stopping Bradley's offense late in that game.

    In brief, is there anyone now who would like to have Jim Whitesell over Jim Les as Bradley's coach? What has happened to Loyola? Is Whitesell not a great coach as some had believed, or is he just a poor recruiter?

  • #2
    Interesting question for sure.....

    I think you always take a chance on a hire that isn't established or has experience in the D1 ranks, especially in the recruiting aspect. At least with the perennial "Top D1 Assistants That Should Get A Head Coaching Job" they have the benefit of basically using their association with a successful D1 program and well-known Head Coach to make themselves look good to employers and potential recruits.

    For potential recruiting abilities (back when they were both evaluated) Whitesell and Les faced the same, but different problems (How's that for a Captain Obvious statement?).

    Whitesell was an established, experienced coach, but not at the D1 level. I'm not so sure he had a "network" he could work to draw recruits in; he had to primarily rely on personality and the school's rep (or lack thereof).

    Les had no D1 coaching experience, but had a successful D1 career, as well as his NBA experience (and subsequent contacts and reputation) to draw upon and impress recruits. Plus he had an emotional, vested interest in the school and program moreso than any other coach.

    I think you'd have had to give the edge to Les if you were evaluating their potential ability to recruit.

    With that in mind, the administration probably had to consider the importance of the two questions:

    1. Will good recruiting be able to mask possible poor/shaky coaching?

    If you say yes, you hire Les

    2. Will OK recruiting be OK because good coaching should make them better?

    If you say yes, you hire Whitesell

    Basically, would you rather have a good recruiter and OK tactician or a good tactician and OK recruiter? (For those of you who are saying, "I want a good recruiter AND a good tactician!" I have one quasi-word for you: Duh!)

    Of course, part of a coach's responsibility is to develop the players he brings in....but if you already start out with a better recruit, you don't have to be as good a coach, right?
    A real fan celebrates the successes, but also acknowledges the failures of his team.

    Comment


    • #3
      I recall those rips of Jim Les did take place, as well as cries even as late as February, 2006, calling for BU to jettison Jim Les and try to get someone like Rob Judson, Howard Moore, Jim Whitesell, and (believe it or not!!) Tony Wysinger!!!
      One poster who even promoted the idea that BU should consider Tony Wysinger actually even went so far as to hint that Tony probably wouldn't even want the job since he had a better situation at ICC!!
      (I am serious......those kinds of deluded attacks on BU and JL really existed!).


      Even more recently.....there were posters claiming that
      ICC's starting five would beat Bradley's starting five.

      Here is just a simple summary of what happened to the respective starting fives of ICC and BU last year.

      BU's starting five went on to win 22 games at the D-I level and advance to the 2nd round of the NIT. 2 of BU's starting five from 06-07 are preseason MVC All Conference picks in 2007-2008 (DRuff & JC) and the two leading returning scorers in the MVC (DRuff and JC), and of the other 3 guys - two (Will Franklin & Zach Andrews) are and will have fine pro careers, and JJ Tauai ended up being hailed as one of the top players in the MVC despite his relatively low scoring numbers. Their final RPI was 33!

      ICC's starting five from last year are all but invisible, and it even takes a little digging to figure out what happened to them. In the end they fizzled out and unfortunately didn't even win their own regional held on their own home court.
      DeAaron Williams never made it to BU, and even though he finally got an opportunity to play D-II ball at Northern Ky., he still hasn't played yet, and sadly, maybe never will.
      Billy Baptist went to UIC and got kicked off the team, and nobody knows where he is now.
      Jeff Wires-the starting ICC PG last year - not playing college ball anywhere
      Wendell Mardis did go to Alabama State, but barely gets playing time despite this being a very low-major D-I. In 11 mpg he is averaging 3.7ppg.
      Shang Ping, the guy some thought would have the best college career (besides DeAaron) is languishing on the bench at Nebraska. Game by game his playing time is shrinking as his production dwindles.
      Last night, against WKU, he played "0+" minutes and was scoreless. So far this year, in mostly game-ending garbage time, he is averaging about 2ppg, 1rpg.
      Robert Davis, Will Jones, Matt Nicholson, Tad Sterling (helping out as grad-asst. at ICC), and Brandon Lee were the next five players and some of them started at times, and none that I know of are playing college ball now, except Will Jones is at St. Joseph's in Indiana averaging 3ppg for this small D-II.
      (ps-- there was a report that Robert Davis had signed to play for a small NAIA school in Owensboro, KY, Brescia College, but he is NOT presently on their roster nor playing there.)

      Comment


      • #4
        Yea, I remember all that talk. I am glad BU stuck with JL.
        I think you hit the nail on the head with the recruiting at Loyola. I watched the BU-Loyola game, and they have some nice players in Blount, Polka, and Young and a couple others, but they aren't the higher level recruits that will carry a team to success and to the NCAA tournament. There are other teams in the Horizon that have gotten better, while Loyola has slipped.

        And I also noticed that the coaching and play of Loyola did not appear to adjust to what Bradley was doing, or try to take advantage of any strenghts Loyola had. Whitesell needs to land some better kids from the Chicago area, but it looks like the 4 recruits they signed for next year are more of the same that they have recruited the last few years, lightly-recruited, roll-type players. And none are from Chicago, in fact, none are from Illinois.

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        • #5
          But they had Marvell Waithe....what happened to him?


          He reneged his committment to Loyola then said he was going to Rutgers, but then he dropped off the map.
          My guess is he didn't qualify...he is not on their roster.

          "Loyola...needs more scoring"
          Thank you so much for Eric Peterson’s story, “Left without a home.” The story broke my heart and gave me continued empathy for those who just need a little extra “hand up” and not a “hand...

          Comment


          • #6
            I was one of those who talked about Whitesell favorably, and am not afraid to admit it. At the time, he had a track record of winning wherever he had been, and IMO was a much more seasoned and veteran coach than JL. My opinions on his coaching ability haven't changed. If you've ever seen Loyola's facilities, you'll understand why Whitesell will have a hard time having long term success there. If you think ours are/were bad, Loyola's could be among the worst in all of Division I. I think Whitesell would have been very successful at BU, given the support that this program gets from it's athletic department, university, and community.

            Am I glad JL is our coach? Absolutely. At the time of my comments regarding Whitesell, I was tired of losing and was losing faith that thing was getting turned around. Anyone who says they were content with our 4th straight losing campaign is a liar.
            Onward and Upward!

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey Da Coach.......
              can you summarize how all the other finalists and semi-finalists for the
              BU head coaching job in 2002 have done in the intervening 5.5 years?
              Have any gone on to significant coaching success that would lend
              credence to the thought that BU missed out on another of the coaching candidates?

              Comment


              • #8
                When the hiring process began after Mo was let go, I proposed John Pelphry.... that same year, he took the reigns at S Alabama, did well and is now the Head Coach at Arkansas.

                Comment


                • #9
                  If we're going to ask if Jim Whitesell could have won at BU, we have to ask if Jim Les could win at Loyola. With their facilities and lack of support, I don't think he could. I'm not sure anyone really can over the long haul.
                  Onward and Upward!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Pelphrey might have been a good choice, but was he ever seriously considered for the BU job,
                    or did he even submit a resume and become part of the search for the head coach at BU in 2002?

                    and BB....I think one of the things that appears to have prompted Da Coach's querie about Whitesell was how bad Loyola looked,
                    how poorly prepared they seemed to deal with BU's quickness, and how badly coached they seemed at times.
                    They were picked by some to be as high as 2nd in the Horizon.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by tornado View Post
                      Pelphrey might have been a good choice, but was he ever seriously considered for the BU job,
                      or did he even submit a resume and become part of the search for the head coach at BU in 2002?
                      You are right T. The coaching search was about the time I joined the Message Board community. I was trying to get his name out and maybe someone would take notice and maybe be interested in interviewing him. I don't think anybody heard me (maybe KH cause he/she is a UK fan).

                      I suppose mentioning him now, I just wanted to try looking smart.

                      Last edited by MacabreMob; 12-06-2007, 12:03 PM. Reason: changed smiley

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by tornado View Post
                        Pelphrey might have been a good choice, but was he ever seriously considered for the BU job,
                        or did he even submit a resume and become part of the search for the head coach at BU in 2002?

                        and BB....I think one of the things that appears to have prompted Da Coach's querie about Whitesell was how bad Loyola looked,
                        how poorly prepared they seemed to deal with BU's quickness, and how badly coached they seemed at times.
                        They were picked by some to be as high as 2nd in the Horizon.
                        The recruiting aspect could be something that Whitesell wasn't ready for. Recruiting for DII and DIII is a lot different than recruiting for DI in a myriad of ways. I know Coach Les was a little shell-shocked when he first started recruiting for BU. Thankfully, he has a great salesman's personality, and also had some experience coaches on his staff to help him learn the ropes. I'm not sure what caliber the assistants are at Loyola, but I think that the recruiting aspect certainly might be where Whitesell is still learning.
                        Onward and Upward!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I can't understand why Whitesell doesn't (or maybe can't) get kids from Chicago.
                          Here is their roster--


                          There are only 5 kids from Illinois and none came directly from Chicago high schools--
                          Justin Ceresoli is from Aurora West and came to Loyola after dropping out of Seton Hall and Mississippi.
                          Courtney Horton is from Chicago Washington HS, but transferred to Loyola from Southeastern Iowa juco.
                          Tracy Robinson is from Lynwood, IL and Leo HS
                          Dave Telander is from Evergreen Park and Brother Rice HS
                          and freshman Geoff Mccammon is from Roselle, IL and Conant HS

                          I know it isn't easy to recruit to Loyola, but Whitesell needs to do a better job. I have seen the facilities at DePaul, and frankly, they aren't much better. Loyola is in the back yard of the most fertile recruiting area in the entire country. If I was a Loyola follower, I would expect better recruiting from Chicago.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tornado View Post
                            Hey Da Coach.......
                            can you summarize how all the other finalists and semi-finalists for the
                            BU head coaching job in 2002 have done in the intervening 5.5 years?
                            Have any gone on to significant coaching success that would lend
                            credence to the thought that BU missed out on another of the coaching candidates?
                            I did post a folllowup on the coaching candidates earlier this year--


                            when I have time, maybe I'll update it. But Whitesell wasn't a candidate for the BU job back in 2002. His name arose just a couple years ago amid the second guessing and criticism of Jim Les.
                            And there were a couple more candidates that made up the original list of 10 that were called for interviews.
                            If anyone can recall the others that I don't list in that link, let me know.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Da Coach View Post
                              I can't understand why Whitesell doesn't (or maybe can't) get kids from Chicago.
                              Here is their roster--


                              There are only 5 kids from Illinois and none came directly from Chicago high schools--
                              Justin Ceresoli is from Aurora West and came to Loyola after dropping out of Seton Hall and Mississippi.
                              Courtney Horton is from Chicago Washington HS, but transferred to Loyola from Southeastern Iowa juco.
                              Tracy Robinson is from Lynwood, IL and Leo HS
                              Dave Telander is from Evergreen Park and Brother Rice HS
                              and freshman Geoff Mccammon is from Roselle, IL and Conant HS

                              I know it isn't easy to recruit to Loyola, but Whitesell needs to do a better job. I have seen the facilities at DePaul, and frankly, they aren't much better. Loyola is in the back yard of the most fertile recruiting area in the entire country. If I was a Loyola follower, I would expect better recruiting from Chicago.
                              Loyola might be in Chicago, but it's on the bottom of the totem pole compared the competition it has for Chicago talent, based largely on the home gym they play in. DePaul and UIC are local competition, and BU, ISU, and SIU are other mid-majors that have recently had a Chicago presence. All of those places have practice facilities better than where Loyola plays their home games. I think it's nearly impossible to recruit a quality player with the Gentile Center as your home court. It's a high school gym that doesn't even have locker rooms.
                              Onward and Upward!

                              Comment

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