Final score- Akron 67 Bradley 52

[tomahawk chop]

Getting back to our lack of depth goes back to many mistakes made in recruiting. We have Linke, Biliew, Thomas sitting on the end of the bench never getting into games and Pettigrew gone. With 13 scholarships that is 4 players not helping this team. That leaves us with Ellis, Jonovic and Atlason and Burch who had not played D-1 basketball needing to contribute more because of the lack of depth. To me not recruiting another point guard was a huge mistake plus at least another shooting guard because the game has evolved into a 3 point contest for the most part. I do think Atlason and Burch have huge upsides to them yet we will have to live with their mistakes as far as growing pains.

[BUBraves2006]

If I'm Wardle, I recruited like this for my depth chart:

PG - Deen / Burch / Ellis
SG - Hickman / Burch (if Hickman is resting and Duke is playing PG) / Pettigrew / Davis (combo)
SF - Leons / Davis (combo) / Atlason
PF - Hannah / Leons (in smaller lineup) / Thomas
C - Meta / Hannah (in smaller lineup)

Biliew, Linke, 2 walk ons are just practice players.

I just think it's revisionist thinking to think that we really needed yet ANOTHER guard to be recruited as to how the class was being constructed. You can't really blame Wardle if he had more than enough guards and then one guy turns out to be a bad apple and one guy gets hurt. Who were you going to recruit to be the 3rd or 4th string and have them be any good?

[tomahawk chop]

If I'm Wardle, I recruited like this for my depth chart:

PG - Deen / Burch / Ellis
SG - Hickman / Burch (if Hickman is resting and Duke is playing PG) / Pettigrew / Davis (combo)
SF - Leons / Davis (combo) / Atlason
PF - Hannah / Leons (in smaller lineup) / Thomas
C - Meta / Hannah (in smaller lineup)

Biliew, Linke, 2 walk ons are just practice players.

I just think it's revisionist thinking to think that we really needed yet ANOTHER guard to be recruited as to how the class was being constructed. You can't really blame Wardle if he had more than enough guards and then one guy turns out to be a bad apple and one guy gets hurt. Who were you going to recruit to be the 3rd or 4th string and have them be any good?

Problem is we need better shooting guards. Deen and Hickman out of those 5 are the only consistent 3 point shooters. Davis to me is a wing and hopefully Burch develops into a better outside shooter. You need more outside(3 point) shooters in this day and age. I really thought that Thomas could help us both inside and outside this season. We have way too many non contributors on this team. These are definitely recruiting mistakes in putting a team together.

[BUfan14]

If I'm Wardle, I recruited like this for my depth chart:

PG - Deen / Burch / Ellis
SG - Hickman / Burch (if Hickman is resting and Duke is playing PG) / Pettigrew / Davis (combo)
SF - Leons / Davis (combo) / Atlason
PF - Hannah / Leons (in smaller lineup) / Thomas
C - Meta / Hannah (in smaller lineup)

Biliew, Linke, 2 walk ons are just practice players.

I just think it's revisionist thinking to think that we really needed yet ANOTHER guard to be recruited as to how the class was being constructed. You can't really blame Wardle if he had more than enough guards and then one guy turns out to be a bad apple and one guy gets hurt. Who were you going to recruit to be the 3rd or 4th string and have them be any good?

It’s not revisionist history for me and several others who said all last year and this offseason we needed another point guard and another shooter and I stated several times those would be my top priorities in the offseason.

Deen needed challenged as the starter. Ellis is not a point guard and Davis is not really a guard at all. Also if they recruited to have Leons starting at the three then I believe that’s a mistake. Leons is best as a four. Notice this game when he has to play on the perimeter more he didn’t do as well on either end? He’s a matchup problem for a lot of fours cause he’s tall enough but still quick and can shoot a little. He’s not quicker than most threes. Atlason is not quick enough to be a three, heck Wardle has him at the 5 most of the time, so I doubt he recruited him as a three man.

How many college rosters are constructed like this: 7 posts, 1 small forward type, 5 guards? Not many.

To me 5 guards is not more than enough in today’s college game, and there are always injuries. They’re like pitchers in baseball, depth is crucial.

[tomahawk chop]

It’s not revisionist history for me and several others who said all last year and this offseason we needed another point guard and another shooter and I stated several times those would be my top priorities in the offseason.

Deen needed challenged as the starter. Ellis is not a point guard and Davis is not really a guard at all. Also if they recruited to have Leons starting at the three then I believe that’s a mistake. Leons is best as a four. Notice this game when he has to play on the perimeter more he didn’t do as well on either end? He’s a matchup problem for a lot of fours cause he’s tall enough but still quick and can shoot a little. He’s not quicker than most threes. Atlason is not quick enough to be a three, heck Wardle has him at the 5 most of the time, so I doubt he recruited him as a three man.

How many college rosters are constructed like this: 7 posts, 1 small forward type, 5 guards? Not many.

To me 5 guards is not more than enough in today’s college game, and there are always injuries. They’re like pitchers in baseball, depth is crucial.

Good points and I would add this roster is made to play zone defense because as witnessed so far we give up too many layups. Leons and Hannah are better protecting the rim and Deen gets exposed all the time trying to guard a much taller player.

[BUBraves2006]

It’s not revisionist history for me and several others who said all last year and this offseason we needed another point guard and another shooter and I stated several times those would be my top priorities in the offseason.

Deen needed challenged as the starter. Ellis is not a point guard and Davis is not really a guard at all. Also if they recruited to have Leons starting at the three then I believe that’s a mistake. Leons is best as a four. Notice this game when he has to play on the perimeter more he didn’t do as well on either end? He’s a matchup problem for a lot of fours cause he’s tall enough but still quick and can shoot a little. He’s not quicker than most threes. Atlason is not quick enough to be a three, heck Wardle has him at the 5 most of the time, so I doubt he recruited him as a three man.

How many college rosters are constructed like this: 7 posts, 1 small forward type, 5 guards? Not many.

To me 5 guards is not more than enough in today’s college game, and there are always injuries. They’re like pitchers in baseball, depth is crucial.

It's revisionist for every person who was so positive the first six games and now think that we can't beat average teams now at home suddenly. If people thought we didn't have enough guards when Connor was healthy and we had Pettigrew in the mix, then I guess we just aren't going to see eye to eye. What if Connor comes back for the next game and we win four in a row going back to Valley play? You can bet the narrative is going to be completely rosy again. I'd rather just be even keel because we're never as great or as bad as people make it seem in the moment.

You have been one consistent person in your points, I'll give you that. I don't agree with them (basically Meta stinks and our depth is awful) and it's frustrating to read the same thing after every game. In your long set of points, you completely glossed over Burch. He is the guy who is "supposed to challenge Deen" and he showed it plenty when we were winning. You insert probably the most critical new member of the team into the mix and then your depth chart looks a heck of lot more rosy. Ellis can't be the third string PG in a pinch? For 5 minutes or less a game? That's just silly. And again, it's not Wardle's fault that Pettigrew didn't work out. Neither you nor anybody else has made any sort of argument on how we would have recruited yet another guard to come here knowing how far they would have needed to come to move up the depth chart. It's like you're all playing fantasy football and you can just plug these guys in without thinking about playing time. Most guys aren't Hickman, Leons or J-Henry. As much as we'd want them to be just all in about Bradley, if they sit on the bench all season, they are probably going to leave (or never come in the first place) and aren't going to just be there for the moment we need someone. From as much as was made public here on the board, it seems like that's what happened (at least partially) with Pettigrew anyway. He probably had a level of expectation of where he'd fit in the mix and when he didn't get that, it wasn't enough for him to want to stay. I think it's evident that in our situation now he would have gotten a ton more minutes, but that's his mistake.

I'll probably not say any more on the topic because I don't we will see eye to eye on it and that's okay. I know we all want us to be successful. Here's hoping there will be more positive things to talk about soon!

[Stryker]

It's revisionist for every person who was so positive the first six games and now think that we can't beat average teams now at home suddenly. If people thought we didn't have enough guards when Connor was healthy and we had Pettigrew in the mix, then I guess we just aren't going to see eye to eye. What if Connor comes back for the next game and we win four in a row going back to Valley play? You can bet the narrative is going to be completely rosy again. I'd rather just be even keel because we're never as great or as bad as people make it seem in the moment.

You have been one consistent person in your points, I'll give you that. I don't agree with them (basically Meta stinks and our depth is awful) and it's frustrating to read the same thing after every game. In your long set of points, you completely glossed over Burch. He is the guy who is "supposed to challenge Deen" and he showed it plenty when we were winning. You insert probably the most critical new member of the team into the mix and then your depth chart looks a heck of lot more rosy. Ellis can't be the third string PG in a pinch? For 5 minutes or less a game? That's just silly. And again, it's not Wardle's fault that Pettigrew didn't work out. Neither you nor anybody else has made any sort of argument on how we would have recruited yet another guard to come here knowing how far they would have needed to come to move up the depth chart. It's like you're all playing fantasy football and you can just plug these guys in without thinking about playing time. Most guys aren't Hickman, Leons or J-Henry. As much as we'd want them to be just all in about Bradley, if they sit on the bench all season, they are probably going to leave (or never come in the first place) and aren't going to just be there for the moment we need someone. From as much as was made public here on the board, it seems like that's what happened (at least partially) with Pettigrew anyway. He probably had a level of expectation of where he'd fit in the mix and when he didn't get that, it wasn't enough for him to want to stay. I think it's evident that in our situation now he would have gotten a ton more minutes, but that's his mistake.

I'll probably not say any more on the topic because I don't we will see eye to eye on it and that's okay. I know we all want us to be successful. Here's hoping there will be more positive things to talk about soon!

I was also one saying guard play was an issue, back to the start of conference play last year. I was hoping Pettigrew and Ellis would pan out great, but as we have seen that hasn't been the case at all. Now it is an issue going forward IMO. Deen is very spotty and has a large limitation due to size, Davis isn't really a guard but has shown some improvement since last year. Really Hickman is the only guy on the roster I view as a solid guard.

[tomahawk chop]

It's revisionist for every person who was so positive the first six games and now think that we can't beat average teams now at home suddenly. If people thought we didn't have enough guards when Connor was healthy and we had Pettigrew in the mix, then I guess we just aren't going to see eye to eye. What if Connor comes back for the next game and we win four in a row going back to Valley play? You can bet the narrative is going to be completely rosy again. I'd rather just be even keel because we're never as great or as bad as people make it seem in the moment.

You have been one consistent person in your points, I'll give you that. I don't agree with them (basically Meta stinks and our depth is awful) and it's frustrating to read the same thing after every game. In your long set of points, you completely glossed over Burch. He is the guy who is "supposed to challenge Deen" and he showed it plenty when we were winning. You insert probably the most critical new member of the team into the mix and then your depth chart looks a heck of lot more rosy. Ellis can't be the third string PG in a pinch? For 5 minutes or less a game? That's just silly. And again, it's not Wardle's fault that Pettigrew didn't work out. Neither you nor anybody else has made any sort of argument on how we would have recruited yet another guard to come here knowing how far they would have needed to come to move up the depth chart. It's like you're all playing fantasy football and you can just plug these guys in without thinking about playing time. Most guys aren't Hickman, Leons or J-Henry. As much as we'd want them to be just all in about Bradley, if they sit on the bench all season, they are probably going to leave (or never come in the first place) and aren't going to just be there for the moment we need someone. From as much as was made public here on the board, it seems like that's what happened (at least partially) with Pettigrew anyway. He probably had a level of expectation of where he'd fit in the mix and when he didn't get that, it wasn't enough for him to want to stay. I think it's evident that in our situation now he would have gotten a ton more minutes, but that's his mistake.

I'll probably not say any more on the topic because I don't we will see eye to eye on it and that's okay. I know we all want us to be successful. Here's hoping there will be more positive things to talk about soon!

The major problem with this roster is what we just experienced , Hickman goes down and we have no one that can come close to filling his shoes. I hate it that we pretty much whiffed in the transfer portal which has put us in this bad situation of being short on decent talent. The Pettigrew thing is definitely on the staff because they gave him the scholarship. I still hate the fact that we lost East several seasons ago because he is a very good player with talent. We seem to be having a problem losing talented players while letting mediocre ones stay to just be practice players.

[bradleyfan124]

The major problem with this roster is what we just experienced , Hickman goes down and we have no one that can come close to filling his shoes. I hate it that we pretty much whiffed in the transfer portal which has put us in this bad situation of being short on decent talent. The Pettigrew thing is definitely on the staff because they gave him the scholarship. I still hate the fact that we lost East several seasons ago because he is a very good player with talent. We seem to be having a problem losing talented players while letting mediocre ones stay to just be practice players.

Guard play being important maybe that is the reason the first recruit we got a commitment from was a guard.

[Tommy]

I just want to go on the record as a huge Duke Deen fan. We don't win the conference last year without him.

[BUfan14]

It's revisionist for every person who was so positive the first six games and now think that we can't beat average teams now at home suddenly. If people thought we didn't have enough guards when Connor was healthy and we had Pettigrew in the mix, then I guess we just aren't going to see eye to eye. What if Connor comes back for the next game and we win four in a row going back to Valley play? You can bet the narrative is going to be completely rosy again. I'd rather just be even keel because we're never as great or as bad as people make it seem in the moment.

You have been one consistent person in your points, I'll give you that. I don't agree with them (basically Meta stinks and our depth is awful) and it's frustrating to read the same thing after every game. In your long set of points, you completely glossed over Burch. He is the guy who is "supposed to challenge Deen" and he showed it plenty when we were winning. You insert probably the most critical new member of the team into the mix and then your depth chart looks a heck of lot more rosy. Ellis can't be the third string PG in a pinch? For 5 minutes or less a game? That's just silly. And again, it's not Wardle's fault that Pettigrew didn't work out. Neither you nor anybody else has made any sort of argument on how we would have recruited yet another guard to come here knowing how far they would have needed to come to move up the depth chart. It's like you're all playing fantasy football and you can just plug these guys in without thinking about playing time. Most guys aren't Hickman, Leons or J-Henry. As much as we'd want them to be just all in about Bradley, if they sit on the bench all season, they are probably going to leave (or never come in the first place) and aren't going to just be there for the moment we need someone. From as much as was made public here on the board, it seems like that's what happened (at least partially) with Pettigrew anyway. He probably had a level of expectation of where he'd fit in the mix and when he didn't get that, it wasn't enough for him to want to stay. I think it's evident that in our situation now he would have gotten a ton more minutes, but that's his mistake.

I'll probably not say any more on the topic because I don't we will see eye to eye on it and that's okay. I know we all want us to be successful. Here's hoping there will be more positive things to talk about soon!

I don’t think Meta stinks. I wonder what his upside and fit is and think he is hurting us defensively quite a bit right now. He’s a decent offensive back up center. I just think three posts lineups are not for the Valley either. I don’t know if he can develop into a starter. But I hope he develops into something great, seems like a great kid. I’m just honestly analyzing what I see.

I like Deen and think he’s talented, but I do think it was possible to get another point guard and play them all. Heck, Hickman’s our backup point guard and he starts with Deen. And I love Burch, I’ve complimented him many many times, and have said he’s just going through freshman struggles (it’s not been his best stretch), but he was more of a shooting guard so it’ll take time for him to develop as a point. He has demonstrated nice passing skills at times. Burch will be a great starting guard one way or another eventually I think. I don’t see Ellis is a point guard as all, at least right now. Some guys are just wings, and he has had a hard time handling the ball so far this year. Has he brought the ball up hardly at all this year that I can recall?

I do also think when a player doesn’t work out, the coaches share some responsibility, after all, they recruited them. I give Brian all the credit in the world for Burch and Atlason, but then he also gets some blame for the transfers.

In terms of how we get another guard, there seems to be playing time available. Also, are you implying Ellis and Pettigrew originally came here knowing and accepting they’d be on the bench? People thought Ellis and Pettigrew could be starter quality in the off season. What I wanted was a D1 transfer like them except a better fit than they’ve shown so far. Neither is really a point or shooter.

As I’ve maintained all year, there’s some good and bad with this team. Of course the narrative changes with wins or losses. That’s sports. I hope we can keep improving the bad and get better. This team still has potential, but some things will have to go right for 8-9 players at best to have a great season. I hope it happens that way. We will see, and that’s why I love watching sports.

[tomahawk chop]

I just want to go on the record as a huge Duke Deen fan. We don't win the conference last year without him.

I like Deen but we have no good backup point guard. Hickman is also a good 2 guard but again we do not have a good backup for him. Burch and Ellis are inexperienced at this level and it will take some time for them to be consistent contributors. Pettigrew looked like he was ready to help and losing him hurt our depth at guard.Not putting blame on anyone since I do not know the circumstances on why he quit.

[Tommy]

Bumping this thread.

Thought this was the best example of how fickle we can be game to game. To see the opinions on Deen and the team in general in this thread compared to the game thread after winning at Missouri St. is quite the dichotomy.

[BUfan14]

Bumping this thread.

Thought this was the best example of how fickle we can be game to game. To see the opinions on Deen and the team in general in this thread compared to the game thread after winning at Missouri St. is quite the dichotomy.

I don’t think you’re specifically calling out anyone, but I do agree it’s an interesting and fascinating exercise to look back at what I said just to see how it holds up. I don’t do that often. I’m relieved to say would stand by most all of it, especially given the context of the time. Certainly I’ve admitted Deen improved as a true point guard post Hickman injury beyond what I could have even imaged for him, but I always liked him as a scorer and a piece for sure (as I posted above).

Also, as I apparently stated, I do believe narratives, especially in sports, do change over time as we get more information. It may change a couple more times before the end of this year. I try to be leveled headed and fair, but it is something I definitely have to watch with my passion for Bradley basketball. I still continue to hope Hick and Deen stay as healthy as possible for another month or so cause this was not fun with Hickman out!

[Tommy]

I don’t think you’re specifically calling out anyone, but I do agree it’s an interesting and fascinating exercise to look back at what I said just to see how it holds up. I don’t do that often. I’m relieved to say would stand by most all of it, especially given the context of the time. Certainly I’ve admitted Deen improved as a true point guard post Hickman injury beyond what I could have even imaged for him, but I always liked him as a scorer and a piece for sure (as I posted above).

Also, as I apparently stated, I do believe narratives, especially in sports, do change over time as we get more information. It may change a couple more times before the end of this year. I try to be leveled headed and fair, but it is something I definitely have to watch with my passion for Bradley basketball. I still continue to hope Hick and Deen stay as healthy as possible for another month or so cause this was not fun with Hickman out!

You’ve been very consistent 14. And yes, losing Hick was devastating and sounds like he’s not going to be back to 100% anytime soon. Let’s hope he can stay on the floor and I think we have as good a shot as anyone come tournament time.