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**Daniel Poneman** · 05-25-2007, 10:21 AM

I disagree with you about the rivals 150 from 03.
I count 11 of them that made it on an NBA roster, 9 who have been College Stars, and 5 who i havent heard anything from. I think thats pretty darn good!

You mentioned Ndudi Ebi, Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, Brandon Bass, Olu Famutimi as players that you didnt thing were worthy of thier rank, but Ebi, Perkins, and Lang and Famutimi all made it on NBA rosters, but thier potential was stunted due to lack of college experience. I think all four are either in the league or the NBDL. Bass took his team to a final four.

**tornado** · 05-25-2007, 11:11 AM

I never said they didn't make it anywhere, but several that you named were still just blips while kids like Chris Paul, Aaron Gray (#148 in the Top 150), Dane Bradshaw (#133), Marcus Slaughter (117), DJ Strawberry (103), Sammy Mejia (98 ), Reynaldo Balkman (92), Lee Humphrey (81), Josh Boone (54), Q-Douby (52), and numerous others who were rated far below the Top 25 had arguably far better college careers, and most will have much better pro careers....not just be a blip.

Strangely, given the schools that ended up recruiting the guys I just named (Tennessee, Pitt, Florida, Maryland, South Carolina, UConn, Wake, etc.) ALL have had some pretty nice success the past 4 years and ALL must have known something those Rivals guys didn't. They offered those kids scholarships, and they passed on the likes of Padgett, Lang, Wafer...

**MacabreMob** · 05-25-2007, 12:27 PM

So basically... nobody really needs to pay any attention to any rankings.

If a coach is a good evaluator for what he is looking for to fit in his system... then just support whatever he does.

**cpacmel** · 05-25-2007, 12:40 PM

Could it also be that rankings are just for the time frame given. So when those rankings came out, in 2003 that is how they indeed shaped up.

Now 4 years later, things change. Some players get better, some players get worse, some players stay the same.

Just because say someone like Chris Paul got branded the #14 best player in 2003, doesn't mean he couldn't improve on that ranking.

**tornado** · 05-25-2007, 12:42 PM

People do pay attention to rankings, but there is reason for some concern in that the rankings vary quite a bit at times, and they aren't a 100% indicator of who's got talent, that's all.
POB is in the pros and barely made anyone's list even inside his own state, let alone nationally.

In the end, I cite that our coaching staff has been pretty accurate in targeting talent.... generally well before a lot of other schools.
Jim Les was onto Iman Shumpert almost a year before anyone else knew who he was, and BU had already offered Matt Roth, Jordan Prosser, and DJ Richardson a year before anyone else was looking at them.

**tornado** · 05-28-2007, 06:19 PM

Even MORE proof that the rankings are affected purely by bias...

Mike Tisdale, of Riverton, has been a 3-Star recruit for two years.
His high school season ended, and his team never made it to Sectionals.
He hasn't played any AAU ball, and in fact he hasn't played at all and hasn't done even one thing
that would make his stock go either up OR down.....so tell me....

How come he suddenly jumps from a 3-Star to a Four-STAR?

College Sports News and Recruiting

http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=169&p=8&c=1&nid=1968231

Stay up to date with all the College sports news, recruiting, transfers, and more at 247Sports.com

Even the Illini fans are kinda stumped how this happened overnight without anything to explain it.....except of course that he sticks with his committment to a BCS school.

**MacabreMob** · 05-28-2007, 10:44 PM

All this rankings stuff....

What one might worry about is a coach (assistants) getting caught up with rankings. Instead of doing one's own homework, just going by rankings. Then throw all these great rankings together and expecting great results. (I know Tornado could easily take a stab at Kansas and their current coaching staff with this statement

)

I'd be happier with a coach/coaching staff that found great STUDENT ATHLETES fitting into a great coaching style/system producing good results and postseason success regardless of rankings.

**Daniel Poneman** · 05-28-2007, 11:22 PM

As a person that "ranks" players, i would like to comment on the matter.
An angry mother spoke to me this weekend and complained that her son is ranked behind kids who get bad grades and are ineligable for their school teams etc. She ramled on and on about the topic and i responded to her by saying this:

It is my job to go to basketball games and see who is a good player. I see players a few times, take notes, compare my evaluations of them to other players of thier same position and such, decided where i think they could end up on the college level, and decided where they should be ranked. It is my job to watch basketball and evaluate players, not to ask the players what thier grades are or call thier coach or teachers and find that out (the would all lie anyway and the coaches and teachers arent allowed to tell me). I do not have enough time in my day to find out each players story, i only have time to watch them and write about what i see, no politics involved.
Another thing: No ranking is perfect. I can see 2 players play 20 times each in high school and one can clearly be better then the other, and the worse one make it to the NBA while the better one busts and i couldve never had any way to predict it (Dwayne Wade didnt start for the Warriors his junior year). I rank players to the best of my ability, but i cannot tell the future. some people improve and some dont, that is how it always will be. Rankings arent meant to take literally, and there is very little, if anything, that seperates the #88 and 89 players in my ranking, but no coach will recruit the 88th and not the 89th because of where they are ranked. Rankings are meant to be a guide for coaches to pick out who they want to see and that is all.

**MacabreMob** · 05-29-2007, 12:00 AM

It is my job to go to basketball games and see who is a good player.

It is my job to watch basketball and evaluate players, not to ask the players what thier grades are or call thier coach or teachers and find that out...

I see players a few times, take notes, compare my evaluations of them to other players of thier same position and such, decided where i think they could end up on the college level, and decided where they should be ranked.

Being a college player means you need to be a college STUDENT.

Maybe rankings should take THAT FACT into account when ranking based on opinion.

DP, please... I am not picking on you... I am thankful for your insight... and especially grateful for your conversation on the subject.

Does the ranking drive coaches/institutions to "bend" things to get a player of a particular ranking?

Maybe rankings could be driven by potential student athletes... say a 5 Star recruit has horrible acedemic credentials... therefore, he is lowered to 4 or 3 star... and a 2 or 3 star recruit has exceptional acedemic credentials, therefore he is now a 4 or 5 star recruit.

You say these rankings suggest where they could end up on the college level but if someone can't make it into college or doesn't look good if they can get into college, the rankings can't be considered valid or reliable.

Maybe these ranking sites should differentiate between NBA potential and college level. Some players will make both lists and some will make them at the same rating. Some won't.

Just an idea.

**Da Coach** · 05-29-2007, 07:19 AM

Originally posted by Daniel Poneman

As a person that "ranks" players, i would like to comment on the matter.
An angry mother spoke to me this weekend and complained that her son is ranked behind kids who get bad grades and are ineligable for their school teams etc. She ramled on and on about the topic and i responded to her by saying this:

I am sorry to hear that people take their frustration out on you. You do a good job and don't deserve this stuff.
My advice is to stay as anonymous and incognito as you can at the games.

**Braves4Life** · 05-29-2007, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by MacabreMob

It is my job to go to basketball games and see who is a good player.

It is my job to watch basketball and evaluate players, not to ask the players what thier grades are or call thier coach or teachers and find that out...

I see players a few times, take notes, compare my evaluations of them to other players of thier same position and such, decided where i think they could end up on the college level, and decided where they should be ranked.

Being a college player means you need to be a college STUDENT.

Maybe rankings should take THAT FACT into account when ranking based on opinion.

DP, please... I am not picking on you... I am thankful for your insight... and especially grateful for your conversation on the subject.

Does the ranking drive coaches/institutions to "bend" things to get a player of a particular ranking?

Maybe rankings could be driven by potential student athletes... say a 5 Star recruit has horrible acedemic credentials... therefore, he is lowered to 4 or 3 star... and a 2 or 3 star recruit has exceptional acedemic credentials, therefore he is now a 4 or 5 star recruit.

You say these rankings suggest where they could end up on the college level but if someone can't make it into college or doesn't look good if they can get into college, the rankings can't be considered valid or reliable.

Maybe these ranking sites should differentiate between NBA potential and college level. Some players will make both lists and some will make them at the same rating. Some won't.

Just an idea.

Sorry Mac, can't agree with you here. Gotta go with Da Kid's reasoning. You go with your system and you really get into politics and shady deals when it comes to ranking a kid's grades and character (not to mention that it is probably illegal/unethical to disclose a high schooler's grades/lifestyle).

I think the current rating system (as flawed as it is) is fine as it is. It's a good coach's job to sift through the BS and find both a talented and quality kid. I think JL and BU has been doing fine with this up until this year. Unfortunately, when you begin rolling dice with the devil (read: going after kids highly rated with no/little regard to character/brains) like we did this year you are going to occasionally get burned). If we want to keep playing this game (and I think most of us do) then it becomes a numbers game; win some/lose some. There's probably a reason a highly rated kid "falls" to a BU instead of going to a "name" school

**Daniel Poneman** · 05-29-2007, 11:16 AM

Thanks Braves4life
Mac,
Ideally i would be able to rank kids based on talent, character, and grades, and when i talk to college coaches about kids or write articles about them, i always mention what grades they get if i can obtain this info. However, there are many kids who either lie and say they have better grades then they do, or their grades are impossible to obtain because i dont have thier contact info and thier coaches and teachers arent allowed to give out that kind of info.
It is unfair to lower one kid because he has bad grades but keep another where hes at because i dont know what his grades are like or because he lied to me about his grades. I rank on talent, not grades/charachter. I know basketball and i can deciede who is talented and who isnt at basketball, i however cannot look at a kid and find out what his grades are like. If a kid has poor grades, then an inquiring college coach can easily find that out if he works hard enough at it, something that i cant do.

**MacabreMob** · 05-29-2007, 12:49 PM

Thanks DP and B4L.

Final note: I wasn't suggesting DP take on the system in place, I was suggesting the system stinks.

Good luck to you DP and keep up the good work.

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