Has the name "Braves" run its course?

[Guest]

this will make me very unpopular here, i'm sure...

.. but the name Braves has to go.

Before everybody starts hating, let me tell you a little bit about me.

I love the name Braves. i think the Indian warrior is a proud and fierce symbol and I wish we could get it back. I greatly respect native americans and dont want to offend them, but I think that if its tastefully done, a native american is far from offensive. Of course, im not a native american, so my opinion on that isn't worth too much.

However,

As it is we're trying to ride the fence. This has less to do with the school's desire to be PC than it does with the NCAA cracking down on names deemed racially insensitive and other schools' refusal to schedule us (i.e. Wisconsin, for example.) We have retained the name "braves", but shed all references to native american culture.

Ask yourself this: is the name "Braves", still valuable, even though it has become generic? Is it still meaningful despite the fact that it hasn't retained any reference to native americans? Why do we cling to it? tradition? The power of our memories?

I won't deny that its something we have strong feelings for. I grew up in Peoria, and have followed bradley basketball since i was old enough to understand the game. I am a proud alum and attend almost every home game (and a handful of away games a year).

But at what point does the affinity for tradition become counter-productive? is there a time that our love for the familiar becomes a weakness, and not a strength?

I know this is a touchy subject, but i am interested in other people's opinions.

[dogsrus]

You make some good points....the one thing that jumped out at me though is where you said "proud and fierce". Fierce is something that many relate to the stereotypical references of Native Americans. That John Wayne western where those fierce warriors all dress up in war paint and go scalp em some white men.

While many of us look at that as something to be proud of its an image many Native Americans want to move away from.

As I pointed out in another thread we either drop the Braves or forget trying to "fake" people out that our name is anything else but Indian related. Trying to re-identify a Brave with a clock, rocket, gargoyle, squirell...whatever isn't going to change the relationship between Brave and Indian.

ANd NO ONE should "hate you" or "hate on you" for your opinoin about this issue. MANY take the name Braves seriously and thats respectable but good debate means being open minded to different ideas even if you strongly disagree.


I guess my point is Braves is NOT generic.....no matter what we do to make it that way OR try and make it something its not.

[numbr_9]

"You make some good points....the one thing that jumped out at me though is where you said "proud and fierce". Fierce is something that many relate to the stereotypical references of Native Americans. That John Wayne western where those fierce warriors all dress up in war paint and go scalp em some white men.

While many of us look at that as something to be proud of its an image many Native Americans want to move away from. "

I agree 100%


"As I pointed out in another thread we either drop the Braves or forget trying to "fake" people out that our name is anything else but Indian related. Trying to re-identify a Brave with a clock, rocket, gargoyle, squirell...whatever isn't going to change the relationship between Brave and Indian."

I agree 100%

I think we're both saying the same thing. It seems that we, as a university, are making an effort for the name to become generic. Your point is that is impossible because of the inherent implications and associations that come with the name "Braves". My point is that even if it is successfully achieved, we would be better served with a completely different name.

I think a mascot of anything BUT a native american or native american reference only creates confusion and devisiveness. And since the odds of us ever getting a native american as a mascot or at the very least, image (i.e. logo) are a long shot at best, i feel that we should explore a completely different alternative. No more "we're the braves, but we're not indians, no, we're braves but were also bobcats/gargoyles/bravehearts, etc." Its confusing. its ambiguous. I think we can do better. And I'd love to hear what others think.

[Chucky T's]

Many good points here...

My opinion all along has been that if Bradley is going to make a change, then we need to start from scratch. Drop the "braves" and come up with a new nickname and and a mascot that fits the name. If we are going to keep the Braves name, then in my opinion the only mascot that seems to "fit" is an American Indian. Since we are not allowed to have this mascot then I agree with the current no mascot decision.

I am also a life long BU fan and I have alot of respect for the tradition that Bradley has. But at this point it may be time to at least consider a change and a "new beginning".

[BI_Brave_alum]

personally i don't associate the name "braves" with native americans but i know thats what it originally referred to. maybe that is hypocritical. i think eventually the future generations will not associate that name either w/ the imagery.
however my opinion doesn't matter much since i'm not of native american heritage. they should ask local central illinois and midwest native americans if they are offended by the name of "brave" standing alone w/o a mascot. if the majority are, then looking into changing the school name. i agree that the name would have to change, as it will not fit with anything else deemed "non offensive" The school will probably be scared to change that b/c of potential loss in alumni $ and such.

the seminole tribe in Florida apparently doesn't think all the imagery with the FL St team uses. (tomahawks, flaming spears, etc) i venture to say they may a good penny off of sales. i guess what's offensive is determined by $$. something to think about..

what's sad is that on the pro level, the team in the nation's capital is probably the most offensive term used with the accompanying violent imagery but i doubt that will ever be changed.

how come the irish folks doesn't get up in arms about the "fighting irish" which could be alluded to the stereotype of drinking?

[Dallas Brave]

Interesting thread and my kind of thread since I sometimes am guilty of theoretical preponderance.

Rather than state any views on BU???‚¬?„?s situation though, let me ask this question, ???‚¬?“Is it necessary for the school to have perfect alignment between its team name and its logo and mascot for the logo and mascot to be well-liked and fun to have????‚¬??

For example, Stanford???‚¬?„?s team name is Cardinal but its mascot is a tree. I remember watching on ESPN a few years back when the showed video of the Tree being ejected from a basketball game - I think it eventually came up that the student inside the tree had stayed at the pre-game social gathering a little too long if you know what I mean. Stanford is a great, maybe the best, university with an incredibly diverse student body and rich tradition of great athletics. I think the Tree getting ejected was fairly well???‚¬???received by the student population.

???‚¬?“Is the Tree a great mascot????‚¬?? I think so.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_Tree

???‚¬?“Bbetween 1930 and 1972, Stanford was known as the "Indians." From 1951 until 1972, "Prince Lightfoot" (Timm Williams, a member of the Yurok tribe) performed as the mascot with the LSJUMB. In 1972, Native American students and staff successfully lobbied University President Richard Lyman to abolish the Indian mascot. Stanford's teams reverted unofficially to the name "Cardinal", the color that had represented the school before 1930.
For the following nine years, Stanford's students and administrations debated what mascot and team name should replace the Indian. Popular suggestions included the Robber Barons, Huns, and Griffins. Finally, in 1981, University President Donald Kennedy declared that the team names would officially remain "the Cardinal".
In 1975 the Stanford Band performed a halftime show that suggested (in jest) several possible mascot candidates: the Steaming Manhole, the French Fry, and of course, the Tree. The Tree received so much positive attention that the Band decided to make it a permanent fixture.
For the first decade, the role of the Tree was generally performed by the Band managers' girlfriends; in the mid-1980's, however, the Band adopted a more formal selection process for its Trees. Today's Tree candidates must go through grueling and humiliating physical and mental challenges to show that he or she has sufficient chutzpah to be the Tree. During "Tree Week," candidates are known for performing crazy and apparently dangerous stunts; so much so that the University has felt the need to prohibit certain types of audition activities over the years.

[thefish7]

I like the Braves name... but I cannot, in my own mind, avoid any link between it and Native Americans. That's really what it is, and while I don't really think of that as offensive, it's basically against the rules.

I do want a mascot, but I want one that reflects the nickname, I guess. So, for me, what's the point of keeping the name if we can't have any fun with it? I don't know if the current politics will eventually change and we'll be able to bring back some of the old stuff, or if we should eventually just "start from scratch" and come up with a good and unique name/mascot to use.

I'd rather be the Bradley Clocks with a clock mascot than the Braves with a clock mascot.. heheh though to be clear I'd rather be the Braves with no mascot at all, than the Clocks.

[tornado]

personally i don't associate the name "braves" with native americans ....

There will be some who say the name is synonymous with Native Americans, but let me tell you something......

I have been doing a little research on the early years of BU basketball (something I will make available to all soon, and it is going to be quite interesting.)

I have read all the weekly student newspapers from 1903 on and all the issues of the Peoria Star, and other sources as well as some things I have privately.

First-- the phrase "Bradley Braves" with an intended Native American connection was never used until the mid-1930's, and as has been noted elsewhere, the team's nickname before that was "B-men", "Techsters", and Tech-men" (playing upon Bradley Polytechnic Institute.

BUT>>> there was actually one reference in 1905 as follows.

In the "Bradley Tech", the on-campus weekly student newspaper that was the early precusor to the "Scout", a story appeared about a game where Bradley went to play Canton High School.
Here is the reference:

03/08/1905
"Bradley's braves travelled to Canton..."

The term is obviously meant to simply imply "brave team members", and has a small "b" not a capitalized "B".

Given that reference, I believe the term "Bradley braves" was in existence at least 30 years before there was any Native American connotation to the term Braves as used to describe the Bradley basketball team.

Therefore, I would actually agree with you, BI_Brave_alum.
I think the term could be generic in reference to anyone, any color, any ethnicity who is a brave team member.
Maybe others would disagree but I think the evidence of the use of the term "braves" 1/3 of a century ahead of the first connection to Native Americans supports my viewpoint.

[squirrel]

Team names were essentially always unofficial, however, many stuck and become synonymous with their respective institutions.

Through the mid-teens and 1930's, Indians and redmen were also popular unofficial monikers for Bradley athletic teams. When they made the switch to the Braves in I believe 1937, the principle reason cited was too many other schools were adopting the name "Indians"

[BI_Brave_alum]

personally i don't associate the name "braves" with native americans ....

There will be some who say the name is synonymous with Native Americans, but let me tell you something......

I have been doing a little research on the early years of BU basketball (something I will make available to all soon, and it is going to be quite interesting.)

I have read all the weekly student newspapers from 1903 on and all the issues of the Peoria Star, and other sources as well as some things I have privately.

First-- the phrase "Bradley Braves" with an intended Native American connection was never used until the mid-1930's, and as has been noted elsewhere, the team's nickname before that was "B-men", "Techsters", and Tech-men" (playing upon Bradley Polytechnic Institute.

BUT>>> there was actually one reference in 1905 as follows.

In the "Bradley Tech", the on-campus weekly student newspaper that was the early precusor to the "Scout", a story appeared about a game where Bradley went to play Canton High School.
Here is the reference:

03/08/1905
"Bradley's braves travelled to Canton..."

The term is obviously meant to simply imply "brave team members", and has a small "b" not a capitalized "B".

Given that reference, I believe the term "Bradley braves" was in existence at least 30 years before there was any Native American connotation to the term Braves as used to describe the Bradley basketball team.

Therefore, I would actually agree with you, BI_Brave_alum.
I think the term could be generic in reference to anyone, any color, any ethnicity who is a brave team member.
Maybe others would disagree but I think the evidence of the use of the term "braves" 1/3 of a century ahead of the first connection to Native Americans supports my viewpoint.

wow that is very intersting, thanks for that nugget of info. maybe we just assume that the name originally had a reference to native americans, and there is some obvious imagery that was produced (Brad E. Lee, etc.) via the students, etc. perhaps all that was a misguided from what the originally reference had been.

you should present that info to someone on the committee that most likely will be brought up when the NCAA makes a stink about the issue again!...

[squirrel]

personally i don't associate the name "braves" with native americans ....

There will be some who say the name is synonymous with Native Americans, but let me tell you something......

I have been doing a little research on the early years of BU basketball (something I will make available to all soon, and it is going to be quite interesting.)

I have read all the weekly student newspapers from 1903 on and all the issues of the Peoria Star, and other sources as well as some things I have privately.

First-- the phrase "Bradley Braves" with an intended Native American connection was never used until the mid-1930's, and as has been noted elsewhere, the team's nickname before that was "B-men", "Techsters", and Tech-men" (playing upon Bradley Polytechnic Institute.

BUT>>> there was actually one reference in 1905 as follows.

In the "Bradley Tech", the on-campus weekly student newspaper that was the early precusor to the "Scout", a story appeared about a game where Bradley went to play Canton High School.
Here is the reference:

03/08/1905
"Bradley's braves travelled to Canton..."

The term is obviously meant to simply imply "brave team members", and has a small "b" not a capitalized "B".

Given that reference, I believe the term "Bradley braves" was in existence at least 30 years before there was any Native American connotation to the term Braves as used to describe the Bradley basketball team.

Therefore, I would actually agree with you, BI_Brave_alum.
I think the term could be generic in reference to anyone, any color, any ethnicity who is a brave team member.
Maybe others would disagree but I think the evidence of the use of the term "braves" 1/3 of a century ahead of the first connection to Native Americans supports my viewpoint.

wow that is very intersting, thanks for that nugget of info. maybe we just assume that the name originally had a reference to native americans, and there is some obvious imagery that was produced (Brad E. Lee, etc.) via the students, etc. perhaps all that was a misguided from what the originally reference had been.

you should present that info to someone on the committee that most likely will be brought up when the NCAA makes a stink about the issue again!...

The fact that Indians emerged as a popular name for Bradley's teams shortly thereafter doesn't help the case though. It shows that perhaps though "braves" had been used, there was a loose connotation there. Unfortunately.

To be fair, Tornado is only offering a handful of the dozens of names that were used unofficially from 1905-1937:

Maroons
Techies/Techsters/Techmen
Reds/Redmen
Indians/Injuns
Braves
Robbymen/Robbiemen (sic)
B-Men

to name just a few more. . .

And maroons was probably the first associated name with Bradley's teams, and that has an even worse connotation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_%28people%29

[Dallas Brave]

I have personally been in favor of Bradley keeping its name and I have been very hostile (I couldn???‚¬?„?t resist) toward the NCAA for allowing special interest groups (if it???‚¬?„?s OK to refer to a race in that manner) sway the majority opinion. I don???‚¬?„?t think this issue has anything to do with individual rights, so I think it???‚¬?„?s OK to look at it from a ???‚¬?“what does the majority want????‚¬?? perspective.

But ???‚¬?¦ let me play the Devil???‚¬?„?s Advocate for a moment and question the line of reasoning to keep the name the Braves because originally it was not used in way that makes, as some would claim, a mockery of the proud Native American Indian.

So yes, you provide indisputable evidence that in the beginning Bradley brave had no reference or attachment to Native American Indians. I grant you that point. But, it also is a fact that over the time the team name Braves did come to symbolize the Native American Indian and that numerous caricatures and phony war dances emerged as part of the Bradley Braves athletic identity. So despite, its original meaning, it did morph into what the NCA has deemed ???‚¬?“hostile and abusive???‚¬?? and, in fact, that was the case up until now that the Braves still referred to the Native American Indian even though BU did away with all Native American imagery. The name Braves was and is still synonymous for ???‚¬?“Indian on the Warpath.???‚¬??

It also seems that the majority of the BU alumni and the current student population have become worn down by this relentless and unceasing attack from the Native American Indian Special Interest Groups and their foils in the NCAA. So worn down that, for the most part, everyone agrees that we should disassociate the name Braves from anything remotely related to Native American Indians.

So, in reality, we are changing our name. It is spelled the same, but it means something entirely different. If that is the case, why not also change the spelling. Many schools, some with prouder traditions than Bradley have done so (e.g., Stanford University). Your argument to keep the name Braves is essentially an argument that you don???‚¬?„?t want to go to the effort of changing the spelling. Is that not a fairly weak line of reasoning to stay in this no man???‚¬?„?s land of what does the name Braves mean? Change the name people. Do not be afraid of a new beginning. The past and future strength of Bradley is in its people, not some random set of symbols scribbled on a piece of paper.

[ser_solace]

I like the Braves name. Maybe it's because I'm young, but I don't associate the name with Native Americans at all. Over time, without any associated native american imagery, that may be how everyone thinks of the name.

[real fan]

N. Dakota is going to court and should win as the NCAA has a double standard over this issue ; Bradley has bent over backwards to please a lot of people by having no mascot; taking the feather out of their logo, and changing the name of the chiefs club to the braves club; coach Les and WMBD announcer Dave Snell always comment once a Brave always a Brave for a reason as it means a lot to the alumni and past players that have come out of this fine university; it may not be important to some of you but it is a huge issue to the rest of us.

[numbr_9]

it is sad that a small, vocal minority can so greatly influence the population at large. My uncle works on the navajo indian reservation as a teacher. know what the overwhelming favorite baseball team is? the atlanta Braves. the kids love the tomahak chop. Go figure.

But lamenting the unfairness of it all does little for us. Sure, in an ideal world we could have a mascot/imagry that celebrates the Native american culture and its achievements. In a perfect world that wouldn't be deemed hostile or offensive, and we could have something to rally around.

Unfortunately, that is not possible. So we are left where we are right now. With a name that has an inherently native american connotation, or maybe worse, has no connotation. A name that we are constantly trying to either justify, explain away, or divert attention from (example, the mascot situation).

I understand why people wouldn't want to drop the name "Braves". I love the name, it symbolizes growing up as a Bradley fan, attending school here, and being a proud alum. It's part of Bradley's identity.

But it all goes back to what are we left with right now, and in the future? Is there any chance that either we can retain the name braves and return to it its meaning? I don't think so. Is there any way we can retain the name braves and somehow convert its connotation? The mascot committee just tried it and was ripped the whole way through the process. Aside from that, as has been discussed here, disassociating the name Braves from its inherent Native American imagry may be an exercise in futility.

Unfortunately, I have yet to see a solution that will please everybody. the options, as I see them, are:

1) change the name -- this will take us off the NCAA watch list, allow us to have a suitable mascot/imagry, please many special-interest groups, and allow us the opportunity to schedule some great schools that won't currently consider playing us. The downside is that I would expect major backlash from alumni/donors, in the form of reduced giving, possibly reduced attendance, and general conflict

2) status quo -- keep the name "braves", continue to disassociate from all references to native americans. continue to have no mascot. this is, i.m.o., the "easy" way out. Pushes off the problems for another day, another student body, another administration. maybe someday the uproar dies down; maybe not. This is the Switzerland method; neutrality.

3) status quo -- keep the name "braves", make an effort to associate the name to something new. Problem with this is the mascot committee made a sincere effort to try this, and was roundly criticized. Maybe because they were trying to please too many people; maybe they went about it wrong. So far we have seen one failed non-indian mascot (ohhh, bobcat; does anybody miss thee?) and another failed mascot push (see active thread: Final decision--> No Mascot). Does anybody believe that trying this again in a year or two will have a different outcome? Isn't that the definiton of insanity?

4) compromise? Convert the name to something similar, maybe "brave". Ive heard this discussed before. Still brings up problems of imagry. If we are going to associate it with something new, why not just change the name altogether and avoid the problems?

5) time warp! Keep the name braves, NCAA be damned, bring back Brad E. Lee. sure, many of us would love this; myself included. But I'd also love to win the lottery, marry Jessica Simpson, and take a tourist trip on the space shuttle. I think this solution is as likely as those things happening. Maybe even less likely.

What do you think? I dont claim to know it all, did I miss another possiblity?

[/i]