Another ISU player is leaving

[Da Coach]

Another ISU player is leaving school. There aren't many left, so it isn't hard to guess who it might be. It is not Phil Fayne, their only returning starter.
It is one of the remaining players who did not play much- that could only be freshman forward Andre Washington or redshirt-freshman guard Matt Hein.

[Da Coach]

It is confirmed that freshman Andre Washington is leaving ISU.
It took less than 1 minute after this was anounced for ISU to remove Andre Washington's name from their 2016-17 roster page, as if he was never at ISU this past season. Persona non grata?-

http://www.goredbirds.com/roster.aspx?path=mbball

Here is the cached version of his bio page-

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:beU1xJewqPAJ:goredbirds.com/roster.aspx%3Frp_id%3D4690+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[Da Coach]

Wonder....is this another case of Muller realizing a recruiting mistake, or does this have anything to do with Andre Washington's recent marijuana arrest that nobody at ISU or in the Bloomington/Normal media has ever mentioned?

If a college player is arrested for possession of an illegal drug in the middle of the season, wouldn't their fans be a bit suspicious if it was never mentioned by the coach, the AD, the university, or anyone in the media, and the player was never suspended nor publicly disciplined?

And like almost all the ISU players, it was not the only thing he was arrested for. Virtually every ISU player has multiple offenses in the county criminal database.

[tornado]

but maybe the coaches have their own legal problems and don't have a lot of time to mess with the players' problems

[mvcfan]

This is not a surprise at all. I am surprised it took this long for him to leave. Washington is a classic tweener who it seems would rather play on the wing. Talk all you want about turnover but I would take the guys Muller has coming in over any Bradley recruit.

[Da Coach]

This is not a surprise at all. I am surprised it took this long for him to leave. Washington is a classic tweener who it seems would rather play on the wing. Talk all you want about turnover but I would take the guys Muller has coming in over any Bradley recruit.

Well, we will see. ISU certainly has a lot more new guys coming in with all their turnover. Considering that just a few weeks ago, ISU looked like they had most of their players returning next season and would have been the overwhelming favorite to win the MVC in 2018 after Wichita State left, now their fans are looking at replacing almost everyone of significance from last year's team. They lost two potential 2018 Player of the Year candidates in Hawkins and McIntosh that they assumed would be returning next year, along with the loss of 2017 POY Paris Lee. And now other key players like D.J. Clayton, who would have likely been a starter, have left early. So although I have nothing against blind faith, their fans are now reduced to hoping all their new players (Tinsley, Copeland, Clarance, Bruninga), who have never played a minute of D1 ball can produce, along with a couple transfers- one (Romine) who scored a total of 12 points and had 5 rebounds in an entire season at UTEP, and the other (Yarbrough) a reserve who averaged 7.7 ppg on a really bad St. Louis team, then he fell out of favor with his coach because of lack of defense. Does Muller still intend to play Yarbrough at the shooting guard position like was announced?

[mvcfan]

Everyone knew Hawkins was going to be gone all year. If you watched much ISU bball last year then you would quickly realize Clayton was not a key player. Yes he played but never did I think they would be in trouble without him.

[tornado]

.. Talk all you want about turnover but I would take the guys Muller has coming in over any Bradley recruit.

but we heard this last year and the year before about N'Diaye, Washington, Madison Williams, Banyard, Lynch, Brewer, Griffin, Harvey, McCloud, Keane, Lofton, Romine, Yarbrough....heck, John Jones was said to be leaving in a year or two for the NBA

In the end - like all mid-majors, you have to recruit the best you can and a lot of kids are misses and wasted scholarships...

The kids that have carried ISU the past 3 years have been Hawkins, McIntosh, Wills & Lee...the four-year kids out of high school that took a couple years to develop from scratch --

BUT - isn't that what WE ARE DOING at Bradley - Coach Wardle is trying to get the four-year kids with a long range plan to develop and then carry us as juniors & seniors....
I think Coach Wardle's argument about not going just for a quick fix with a couple jucos is valid but I understand the fans have pressured enough that he's gone ahead and landed a juco to try to please them.

[bradleyfan124]

This is not a surprise at all. I am surprised it took this long for him to leave. Washington is a classic tweener who it seems would rather play on the wing. Talk all you want about turnover but I would take the guys Muller has coming in over any Bradley recruit.

He may be leaving because he did not make gradewise. It would take to the end of the semester to find out if he made certain grades in classes

[Da Coach]

Everyone knew Hawkins was going to be gone all year. If you watched much ISU bball last year then you would quickly realize Clayton was not a key player. Yes he played but never did I think they would be in trouble without him.

With all due respect, I am not buying that.
Can you show a single example prior to the start of the 2016-17 basketball season in mid-October, 2016, where anyone knew that Hawkins would not be returning next year for his final year of eligiblity? It was clearly an unexpected surprise to everyone, including all those who post on the Redbirdfan message board, and to the ISU beat writer as well.

Hawkins was listed on the ISU roster page as a "sophomore" all of the 2015-16 season, and was listed "Junior" on the ISU roster at the start of this past season until about October 25, 2016, after his latest in a series of run-ins with the law. Then unexpectedly and without any official announcement, his status was suddenly changed on the ISU roster page to "senior". I can't find anyone who knew that was coming prior to that, and I do not believe the coaches knew he would not be back for his final year until then, either. He only ended up playing 3 years, not four. So you can explain it any way you want, but it is clearly an early departure that was not known until after this past season started, which hurts ISU next season. Hawkins would have been ISU's leading scorer and rebounder if he had returned for his fourth year as was expected.
It also put the coaching staff at a disadvantage in not knowing they had to recruit to replace him until well into the 2016-17 recruiting cycle.

And maybe you considered Clayton "not a key player", but your own beat writer Jim Benson used that exact term in describing him when he announced he was leaving. So there appear to be experts who disagree with you, and agree with my assessment.

http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/clayton-decides-to-leave-isu-basketball-team/article_9ad07336-6006-55b7-87ab-7b71af0e49bf.html

Another player expected to play a key role with Illinois State's basketball team next season won't be returning.

Benson, who follows the ISU team as close as anyone also tweeted this:

https://twitter.com/Pg_Benson/status/859837062006153232

Clayton was on MVC All-Bench Team after averaging 6.5 points and 4.3 rebounds. Figured to be a valuable piece on 2017-18 Redbirds.

Clayton would have been ISU's 2nd leading returning scorer and 2nd leading returning rebounder if he had remained with the team.

Again, those are the words of Jim Benson, who always seems to be a reasonable guy and someone who doesn't exaggerate and use hyperbole.
His opinion seem to differ drastically from your opinion. Is he uninformed or wrong?

[mvcfan]

So in October we knew he wasn't coming back and planned to graduate. Not sure what quite some time means to you but 6 months is quite some time to me.

[Da Coach]

So in October we knew he wasn't coming back and planned to graduate. Not sure what quite some time means to you but 6 months is quite some time to me.

OK, so we agree on this- His status of being a "junior" with 2 years of eligibility left to being a "senior" in his final year of eligibility suddenly changed after the 2016-17 basketball season had started, not before. But the key point is that about 6 months ago he was expected to return next year, and now he won't.
And by leaving ISU early, with that extra year of eligibility taken away, along with losses of McIntosh and Clayton, it clearly will have a weakening effect on next season. That is all I was ever referring to, and it was factually correct.

[mvcfan]

Most at ISU knew there was a good chance he would not be back before last year simply because of his age and probably wanting to earn money. Also with his knack of getting in trouble it is probably best for all involved.

[Da Coach]

Most at ISU knew there was a good chance he would not be back before last year simply because of his age and probably wanting to earn money. Also with his knack of getting in trouble it is probably best for all involved.

Wait a minute. Since when are ISU people concerned with players' "knack of getting in trouble".

Just a few examples-
Tony Wills has now accumulated 12 separate charges in the McLean County criminal database in the last 2 years, including a DUI. Yet he never was disciplined a single time, and never missed a single minute of any game.
Deontae Hawkins had a DUI last October, along with numerous other violations in the criminal database, and yet he never missed a single minute of a real game.
D.J. Clayton was arrested and charged with theft and an underage alcohol violation last October, yet he also never missed a single minute of any real game.
And Milik Yarbrough was also arrested for theft and alcohol violations last October, and I guarantee he will not miss any playing time when he becomes eligible.
Plus, others currently on the roster have multiple violations that never resulted in any discipline. And I haven't even begun with the former players under Muller.
For instance, Quentin Brewer was only at ISU for 1 year as a 5th year grad-transfer. But in that 1 year, he managed to accumulate an amazing 17 entries in the McLean County criminal database, including multiple DUI's, and other serious offenses like resisting arrest. Yet, I cannot find any report that he ever was suspended or disciplined in any way.
I could continue, as there are many more examples, but people get the point. No other MVC program even comes close.
I know we beat this subject to death here, but it continues to amaze how many police reports, some serious ones, your players accumulate, and I have never seen the slightest evidence that Dan Muller takes discipline seriously. So I cannot believe that he wouldn't have wanted Hawkins back if he could have managed it.

[tornado]

...
I know we beat this subject to death here.....

actually, there's violations - like Washington's drug/banned substance arrest that have barely been mentioned...
Back when a BU player tested positive for the same substance (but never had any arrest or legal issue whatsoever) or a BU player had far, far lesser offenses, the subject sure got beat to death by ISU fans... Heck, they still occasionally bring up Star Trucking (an unintentional and inadvertent mistake per the NCAA own words) and that happened 12 years ago!