Strength of the MVC

[tornado]

a couple things happening that are a little cause for worry among MVC fans...
The MVC got a lot of media exposure because of the UNI-WSU game this past weekend, but some people noticed some flaws in the MVC...

First - our premier program the last few years, Wichita State, not only lost over the weekend but got humbled and looked beatable...
That's not all bad since they lost to a good team, but observers note that they have dropped behind UNI in the rankings, but everyone knows the rest of the MVC past the #2 spot are a mish-mash of inconsistent and beatable teams with the bottom half of the MVC downright sad.

Then, you have the fact that in Conference RPI ranking - very slowly the MVC is dropping and now, the MVC's Conference RPI is only 1/1000th of a point (0.518 to 0.517) ahead of the 12th place conference...
The MVC has almost always been 7th-10th in Conference RPI & hasn't fallen below 12th in more than a decade...
Both Wichita & UNI are 3-3 against other top 50 programs - still not overwhelming.

But the latest thing that's got people talking is that the team that for a decade, Creighton, that got talked up as the CLASS of the MVC - the most perennial winner, the best coached team and the team most likely to succeed in a bigger & better conference...
They went to a slightly bigger & better conference and guess what...
they are hapless bottom dwellers getting blown out by mediocre teams in the Big East.
People are beginning to say that if this was the best the MVC had to offer - then as soon as they have anything short of a National Player of the Year on their roster - they are terrible.

Since Thanksgiving they are 5-13 and they've lost 9 of their last 10. Six of those losses weren't close (>double-digit) and the last two were by an average of 24 pts.

We need for the MVC teams that get to post-season play to do well ...
And we need for perennially strong MVC teams like Bradley and SIU to get back to respectability.

[bradleyfan124]

I bet the Creighton fans are not liking that. They have been some of the most loyal and energetic fans the Missouri Valley has had. But I dont have any sympathy for them.. They flourished in the Valley. Then when they thought they were to good for the Valley they bolted. They made their bed. Let them lie in it.

[tornado]

I hear ya - they made their move without a whole lot of thought of how it affected anyone else - they did what they did for their own benefit...
But McDermott never had a strong track record of winning in the post-season - so now is his true test...
As I said elsewhere - almost every significant player he has right now is a senior. So if this is how they do with a senior-ladened squad, then it could get worse next year!

[afan]

Creighten coach

The Creighten coach won big when his son played for him. He did not do well at prior coaching assignments. I expected him to falter after his son left the team. And...he did.

[Vent]

a couple things happening that are a little cause for worry among MVC fans...
The MVC got a lot of media exposure because of the UNI-WSU game this past weekend, but some people noticed some flaws in the MVC...

First - our premier program the last few years, Wichita State, not only lost over the weekend but got humbled and looked beatable...
That's not all bad since they lost to a good team, but observers note that they have dropped behind UNI in the rankings, but everyone knows the rest of the MVC past the #2 spot are a mish-mash of inconsistent and beatable teams with the bottom half of the MVC downright sad.

Then, you have the fact that in Conference RPI ranking - very slowly the MVC is dropping and now, the MVC's Conference RPI is only 1/1000th of a point (0.518 to 0.517) ahead of the 12th place conference...
The MVC has almost always been 7th-10th in Conference RPI & hasn't fallen below 12th in more than a decade...
Both Wichita & UNI are 3-3 against other top 50 programs - still not overwhelming.

But the latest thing that's got people talking is that the team that for a decade, Creighton, that got talked up as the CLASS of the MVC - the most perennial winner, the best coached team and the team most likely to succeed in a bigger & better conference...
They went to a slightly bigger & better conference and guess what...
they are hapless bottom dwellers getting blown out by mediocre teams in the Big East.
People are beginning to say that if this was the best the MVC had to offer - then as soon as they have anything short of a National Player of the Year on their roster - they are terrible.

Since Thanksgiving they are 5-13 and they've lost 9 of their last 10. Six of those losses weren't close (>double-digit) and the last two were by an average of 24 pts.

We need for the MVC teams that get to post-season play to do well ...
And we need for perennially strong MVC teams like Bradley and SIU to get back to respectability.

Once you get by Wichita, Northern Iowa, and maybe Illinois State and Indiana State, the MVC is horribly weak. Evansville is 16-6 and four of their losses are in conference play. Their non conference schedule was not very good.

Creighton did not go to a slightly better and bigger conference, they went to a much, much better conference. They may be in last place, but if they were still in the MVC, they would probably still be in the top four. Every team in the Big East would finish at least in fourth place in the MVC.

The Big East has: Villanova, Georgetown, Providence, Butler, Seton Hall, Xavier, DePaul, St. John's, Marquette, Creighto

The MVC has: Wichita, Northern Iowa, Indiana State, Illinois State, Evansville, Missouri State, Loyola, SIU, Drake, Bradley.

Creighton may be down this year, but I think they will be better.

[tornado]

yes - being a great coach HAS TO involve winning in years that you have lesser personnel...
McDermott might still accomplish that - but funny how I recall some saying that now he's at Creighton he will win every year even after Doug leaves - and it is NOT happening...

Hey - even Albeck kicked butt when he had Hersey and yet now, looking back, Albeck is considered one of the two worst coaches ever to have coached at BU.

[Vent]

Creighton will not dominate the Big East as they did the Valley. If they were still in the Valley, they would still be one of the better teams. The financial benefits to Creighton far out way the financial benefit of the Valley. The television deal the Big East has with Fox Sports 1, aired nationally, is much better than the Comcast deal the Valley has that is aired regionally.

They will also have much greater revenue sharing in the Big East, as generally there are at least 6 to 8 teams in the NCAA tournament as compared to 1 or 2 in the MVC.

Being in the Big East also provides much bigger media markets which enables them to generate larger revenue from advertising.

There decision to move to the Big East was more about money than about being able to win the conference every year.

[Chico]

You guys are acting like Creighton is the first team ever to leave the Valley for greener pastures. Remember Louisville, Memphis St, Tulsa, St. Louis.

[Vent]

You guys are acting like Creighton is the first team ever to leave the Valley for greener pastures. Remember Louisville, Memphis St, Tulsa, St. Louis.

Also: Cincinnati, Houston, Oklahoma A & M (State), New Mexico State, Detroit, West Texas State, North Texas State.

Every school with the exception of Detroit, left to either upgrade their football and/or upgrade their basketball competition.

[BUspartan]

The Creighten coach won big when his son played for him. He did not do well at prior coaching assignments. I expected him to falter after his son left the team. And...he did.

This. McDermott had talent at Iowa State and failed miserably. I'm not sure who would've expected Creighton to succeed after not only losing Dougie, but also guys like Echinique who were very good starters. They found lightning in a bottle with that roster and i'm not too surprised with their struggles.

As far as the Valley goes, there are teams on the up. Loyola has a stud in Doyle and are improving, Indiana State has done better than i expected w/losing Jake Odum, UNI is back, Wichita is still winning, Illinois State is playing well, and Balentine at Evansville is doing well.

Sure, you have teams like us, MSU, SIU, etc., but the top of the Valley isn't too shabby.

[valleyclimber]

Agree 100 percent with BUspartan on the post. Anyone who didn't see the Bluejays taking a big fall this season should have known better.

And as far as the Valley conference rating. As of today 2/2/15, the MVC is rpi rated the #10 conference, sooooo....STILL a top 10 conference. And there are a TON of young players in the Valley this season that are making some waves.

Yes, the bottom 4 teams in the MVC need to start stepping it up, but IMHO the Valley is still on the upswing with all the young talent coming up.

As far as Creighton goes, how many Sweet 16s did they make? ZERO. When it came to the NCAAs, the Bluejays did not do the Valley any favors. Yes, the Big East is strong this season, but I hardly think they'll be placing 4-5 teams annually into the Big Dance, and I would put out there that this year's Bluejays would finish below the Valley's top 5.

The MVC has not had 2 teams ranked in the top 15 in years, so it's good to have that this season. The Aces, Trees, Redbirds, Salukis, Bulldogs, Ramblers all are loaded with very good underclassmen, so the very near MVC future is in good shape.

Sorry to be contrary, but I just disagree with the "woe is the Valley" train of thought.

[Vent]

Agree 100 percent with BUspartan on the post. Anyone who didn't see the Bluejays taking a big fall this season should have known better.

And as far as the Valley conference rating. As of today 2/2/15, the MVC is rpi rated the #10 conference, sooooo....STILL a top 10 conference. And there are a TON of young players in the Valley this season that are making some waves.

Yes, the bottom 4 teams in the MVC need to start stepping it up, but IMHO the Valley is still on the upswing with all the young talent coming up.

As far as Creighton goes, how many Sweet 16s did they make? ZERO. When it came to the NCAAs, the Bluejays did not do the Valley any favors. Yes, the Big East is strong this season, but I hardly think they'll be placing 4-5 teams annually into the Big Dance, and I would put out there that this year's Bluejays would finish below the Valley's top 5.

The MVC has not had 2 teams ranked in the top 15 in years, so it's good to have that this season. The Aces, Trees, Redbirds, Salukis, Bulldogs, Ramblers all are loaded with very good underclassmen, so the very near MVC future is in good shape.

Sorry to be contrary, but I just disagree with the "woe is the Valley" train of thought.

Being the 10th best conference isn't exactly something to hang your hat on. If you take away the top 5 (BCS) conferences, that means the Valley is only the 5th best mid-major conference. Yes, they do have some young talent, but teams in other mid major conferences do also. I'm not saying "woe is the Valley". Having 2 teams ranked is quite an accomplishment. What kills the Valley in RPI is once you get by the top couple of teams, the rest of the league is not very good at all. That is why it is so difficult to get more than one team in the NCAA's or for that matter multiple teams into the NIT. Teams weren't exactly knocking on the door to join the MVC when Creighton left. The Valley is basically a basketball conference and always has been. It also has a history of consisting of state schools, non-denominational private and catholic schools. When you have that combination, it is difficult to meet the needs of all of the schools. Almost all of the other mid major conferences don't face the challenges the Valley does, of such a diverse group of schools. The state schools and Drake play football. The others don't. It makes it difficult for football scheduling, hence, the football schools are in a totally different conference. Another major challenge as far a competitive teams and a balanced conference is the vast difference in entrance standards among the schools.

I believe football will eventually alter the landscape of the Valley drastically from what we know it know. The football schools will leave as they have before, and the Valley will continue as it has in the past. Probably somewhat weakened but with more private schools than it has now, that will provide stability.

This is why the Valley has fallen from one of the best basketball conferences in the country, to the best mid major conference, to the fifth best mid major conference.

I've watched the Valley evolve for parts of six decades. I still enjoy watching Valley basketball and am a lifetime BU fan and always will be.

[valleyclimber]

The initial thought of this thread was that the Valley was sliding down to the #13 ranking, and I just wanted to put out there that the MVC is still in the top 10.

Being in a top 10 hoops conference may not be something to hang your hat on, but it's still pretty darn good, and there are at least 20 something other conferences that would love to be consistently ranked in the top 10.

The MVC improved from last season, and IMHO will jump up a bit more next season. Pretty sure the Trees, Salukis, Braves, and maybe the Bears will do better in their non-con schedule, so that would move the Valley up the line some.

I agree that over a 50 year period the Valley has lost some luster with other conferences (A-10, MWC and the WCC) getting stronger, so it's a dogfight outside of the P5 conferences. Having Loyola keep the momentum and establishing themselves as a good program, and the resurgence of the Braves will be 2 key factors in helping the Valley get better in the future.

[Da Coach]

I don't know that the MVC has actually improved. They were the #11 conference in RPI in 2013-14, and currently they are #10. But that probably has more to do with the decline of the Mountain West.
But the MVC has continued to slip closer to the #11 spot, and are now only a tiny increment ahead of the MAC conference.

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2015/conferencerpi

A couple of the sites that predict the future games actually project that the MVC will finish 11th, the same as last season.

http://www.rpiforecast.com/confrpi.html

The MVC is hurt by having so many weak teams this year. Most of the last decade, the MVC had just 1 or 2 teams with RPI's over 200. This year there are 4 teams with RPI's>> 200 (Drake, SIU, Bradley, MSU) and they continue to drop. Plus the MVC has a 5th team (InSU) with an RPI over 180. The way I see it, the MVC is significantly weaker these last 2 seasons and does not appear to be getting stronger.

[tornado]

even with only a few games last night - the MAC Conference crept slightly closer to overtaking the MVC in Conference RPI..
the difference now is 0.5186 to 0.5178 - or just 8 10,000ths behind when 2 weeks ago the difference was a full 100 10,000ths

Rarely does the Conference RPI even have the capacity to change much after conference play starts because at that point every loss in the MVC gets balanced by a win..
BUT if the batch of non-conference opponent teams the conference as a whole played earlier in the season - are doing poorly,
or the batch of non-conference opponent teams the MAC played as a whole earlier in the season - are doing well -

then that's how our Conference RPI would still be slacking off and the MAC gaining on us.


For example - remember how people pointed to TCU & UC-Irvine early in the season as a quality opponents for Bradley that would help our RPI.... because at that time their records and their RPI were very good (top 20 RPI's)?
Well - check it now - TCU's RPI has plummeted over 100 points to 130...
and UC-Irvine's RPI has dropped from 17 to 120 -
...so now they are NOT such a quality opponents and they are helping to drop our RPI both as a team and as a conference.