Final: Augustana 58 Bradley 56

[Da Coach]

I am still searching for more statistics about D2 vs. D3 schools, but I am certain they will prove that D3 is not better than D2 college basketball.


I did find this old discussion from several years ago on D3Boards.com, a message board for D3 hoops fans.
Note that in that season (2004-2005) these were the records for D3 schools versus all other divisions-

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=1167.15

D3 vs.

D1....2-60
D2....9-47
NAIA 1....16-22
NAIA 2....66-70
NCCAA....35-6
USCAA....67-8


I realize that was a decade ago, but I'd like to see some more current statistics, because I believe they would be very similar.
As those numbers show-
-D3 schools only win about 3% of the time against D1 schools
-D3 schools only win 16% of the time against D2 schools
-And D3 schools even had trouble winning against NAIA schools. NAIA Division I is the scholarship division of NAIA, and the D3 schools only won 42% of the time against them, but even against the non-scholarship NAIA Division II, they did not even win 50% of the games.
-But against the tiny, non-scholarship Christian colleges and community colleges, they do OK.


For the 2004-05 season, here were the final records-
D3 vs.

D1....2-61
D2....10-47
NAIA 1....16-22
NAIA 2....67-70
NCCAA....37-7
USCAA....68-7

[Da Coach]

More-


Here are the records for D3 schools vs. other divisions for 2005-2006. D3 won only 24% of their games against D2 schools, and under 3% of games against D1 schools. -

D3 vs.

D1...2-66
D2...22-69
NAIA 1...22-31
NAIA 2...121-119
NCCAA...73-9
USCAA...78-20
Other...37-2

[Da Coach]

Totals for the 2006-2007 season
D3 vs.

D1....1-44
D2....10-73
NAIA 1....21-41
NAIA 2....90-101
NCCAA 1....8-7
NCCAA 2....56-12
USCAA....51-26
Other....72-11


D3 did even worse in 2006-2007- they won only 12% of their games against D2, and only 2% against D1

[Da Coach]

Totals for 2007-2008-


D3 vs.

D1....1-32
D2....16-56
NAIA 1....18-34
NAIA 2....121-98
NCCAA 1....9-2
NCCAA 2....53-22
USCAA....59-23
Other....51-14


D3 won only 22% against D2, and only 3% against D1 in 2007-2008.

[Da Coach]

Here are the totals for 2008-2009, and they are not pretty for D3 vs. D1 and D2-


D3 vs.

D1....1-35
D2....12-57
NAIA 1....9-26
NAIA 2....130-97
NCCAA 1....7-2
NCCAA 2....38-15
USCAA....67-12
Other....60-11


The only D3 win over a D1 was Wisconsin-Platteville over Bradley in November, 2008! They won less than 3% of their matches against D1.
D3 won only 17% against D2.

[Da Coach]

Here are the totals for 2009-2010, and the trend is getting worse for D3 against higher divisions-


D3 record vs:
W L
NCAA D1 0 58
NCAA D2 16 53
NAIA D1 18 31
NAIA D2 138 114
NCCAA 61 35
USCAA 87 21
Other 60 4


D3 was 0% against D1 (0-58!). D3 was 23% against D2 (16-53).

[Da Coach]

The records for 2010-2011 were not tabulated by the guy who was posting them previously, as he quit posting, but they were winless against D1 teams for that season, and did worse than their previous average against D2's.

However, the following year, a new poster started tabulating the D2 records against other divisions.
Here are the records for 2011-2012-

..............W.. L
NCAA-D1 0 45
NCAA-D2 7 37
NAIA-D1 11 36
NAIA-D2 88 97
NCCAA .. 49 26
USCAA ..106 48
Other..... 66 9


0% against D1's, and 16% against D2's

[Da Coach]

The 2012-2013 records are incomplete, but here are the D3 records for 2013-2014 against other divisions-


..............W L
NCAA-D1 1 43
NCAA-D2 2 29
NAIA-D1 10 19
NAIA-D2 65 71
NCCAA-D1 8 3
NCCAA-D2 41 14
USCAA ... 96 24
Other ..... 37 2
Ind-D3 Exploratory 11 5
IND-D3 Provisional 51 4

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=1167.1890#msg1594984

Only 2% against D1 schools, and a woeful 6% against Division II schools.


So the numbers clearly show that D3 basketball overall is not even close to D2.
D3 over the last 10 years wins only 0-3% of their games against D1 schools, and only a cumulative average of about 10-15% of their games against D2's, though the trend is downward.
In recent seasons, the D2 advantage seems to be getting greater, and the D3 chances of competing with D2 keep dropping. This past season, D2 was only 2-29 against D2 schools. Maybe that helps explain why D3 and D2 schools do not play each other nearly as often as they used to do. In some past years, they have played almost 100 games, but last year, just 31 games between D3 and D2,
But clearly, D2 is a consistently better level of basketball, and D3 has never won more than 24% of the games, but just 6% last year.

[valleyclimber]

I thought that poster that said D3 hoops are better than D2 was absolutely wrong, so I'm glad that you guys have posted the numbers.

It's not even close for any of those seasons. The numbers clearly show that D3 hoops is in no way, shape or form anywhere near as good as D2.

Good job on the research

[tornado]

I have no dog in the fight, but d3 basketball is better than d2 so not sure where you're going with that.

well - I guess I hardly need to respond since the last several posts have kinda proven just the opposite...
perhaps you meant that NAIA is better than DIII because I probably would agree with that, but I sure would NOT agree DIII is as good as DII.

DII basketball gives FULL scholarships, DIII gives no athletic scholarships.

I suppose some kid somewhere might have turned down a full scholarship, just to pay his own way, but I'd still have to see that to believe it....especially when some of the schools we're talking about add up to over $100,000 in value to those four years of FULL SCHOLARSHIP. (actually, the most recent data put the cost at $100-200K - LINK)
Thus if any kid worth recruiting has the choice between full ride vs. shelling out $100K - I'm gonna guess he'd be inclined to take the full ride...
that means extremely few DIII's are gonna get the talent that virtually all DII's have.

I recall a similar argument someone made right here on BradleyFans a few years ago - claiming that many if not most DII's were as good as the middle to lower half of DI's and would finish in the middle of the MVC. There were also some incredibly deluded claims that ICC's starting five would beat Bradley's starting five.
Those were likewise similarly silly arguments.

People continue swipes at JL for losing to a DII but recall he also played the #1 ranked DII that was the reigning DII National Champion and we beat them handily,
with their head coach saying about us... "they are obviously a caliber ahead of us.."

[mvcfan]

All I know is Lewis is a very good Div 2 team. Max Strus for Lewis should be playing D1. Sounds like he grew a lot late in his high school career. He put on a show the other night and for a true freshman it would not surprise me if some bigger boys come calling.

[tornado]

a lot of kids who have DI talent do land at DII for various reasons...so some lower division teams do sometimes have decent talent..
DeAaron Williams did, Sean Johnson did, Jordan Nelson, and Malcolm Griffin & John Taylor who starred at Fresno Pacific, etc...and Macari Brooks landed at NAIA..

[BostonBird]

good thing you didn't ask me to bet on it...i would have put up money.

maybe the top d3 are better than top d2?

I've played/researched/followed bball for a long time and this was firmly entrenched in my mind. wonder how i was so off...

[tornado]

Augustana played again yesterday -
Our media blew them up into some kind of D-I caliber powerhouse...but...
yesterday, they barely squeaked by Albion College, 51-47, but they were trailing with just 3 minutes left...
Only two players (Motzel 5, Ryan 6) got more than two rebounds, while Ben Ryan & Mark Roth were both scoreless.

http://www.athletics.augustana.edu/news/2014/11/15/MBB_1115142738.aspx?path=mbball

great - they solved the busy parking lot problem by driving all the fans away!!!

Basically this admin came in 6-7 years ago and chose to listen to a few whiney fans who are the squeaky wheel but who never donated a penny to the school, and some don't even have season tickets.
In pulling the knee-jerk reaction, responding to clueless fans, and cleaning house in every sport except soccer - then bringing in all new coaching staffs - many of whom never had winning seasons before - what the heck did they expect?
With basketball - the 1st clue was that after interviewing or contacting to close to a dozen candidates, they couldn't even find one that wanted the job - even for double their prior salaries - so they were so desperate to get someone - anyone, they were even willing to run roughshod over the contract terms at Kent State - and cost themselves & Geno another $1.4 million buyout penalty.
This has been a series of almost laughable moves - all the while cheered on by those fans who were intoxicated with the hope of running the last coach & AD out of town.
Well, congrats - you have destroyed a once proud basketball program - that will now take a minimum of half a decade and $3-4 million more to clean house again and get new blood in here.