Interesting GF Comment Re 2013-14 Recruiting

[tornado]

anyway - the persona that goes with winning is generally a persona that some don't like --
coaches like Versace are considered brash and arrogant - but the kids WANT TO PLAY for him and he landed some of the best talent this campus has ever seen.
Calipari has the same kind of personality - pushing the limits, turns some people off......but odd how he's bringing in about eight 5-STAR kids this year....

[jrish12]

So...

- you have to have a winning program to get the talented kids...

and

- you have to have the talented kids to produce a consistently winning program...


Catch 22...and I have been following Bradley basketball for nearly 50 years - and one observation is hard to deny - except for a fine, winning year here & there - usually coinciding with a talented group of seniors who were brought in as freshmen and developed (1980, 1982, 1986, 1988, 1996, 2006) Bradley hasn't produced consistent winning seasons since the early 1960's...
I guess it could just pop out of the blue next year...maybe, but I wouldn't bank on it...

So you're just kinda hoping we just gonna up and do something we haven't done in 1/2 a century, huh???
I actually think a school can recruit kids capable of winning championships with the right coaching even without doing it because of a string of "winning seasons" - in fact we'd better find a way of doing it because we can't rely on drawing blue chippers due to winning seasons

Molinari did it back in the early 90's - almost all of whom were talented kids out of high school that fit his system and stayed 4 years.
He was on the verge of doing it again in 2001-2002 when he was run off with a stable of extremely talented kids - many of whom were lost because of the ill-advised coaching change that many have now come to regret.
But such a plan always means once in a while - a down year when the seniors leave and we have to reload.
Thus getting impatient like little babies about one down year then running off the head coach and starting over - is enormously self-destructive for a school in Bradley's position where we have to re-stock, re-load, and develop them.
..and I have other thoughts on how we might have possibly been close at other times, too...

Kids want to play for winning programs. PERIOD. I would say the 80's were consistent success, after Albeck Molinari had pretty consistent success. A winning season is technically winning more games than you lose. So Bradley actually has had very many winning seasons, by the straight definition of a winning season. Statistics are funny.... You can spin them any way you want to fit your agenda.

Also in my bolded portion are you claiming then that the players were run off by the coach that replaced the previous coach that was let go?

On the Calipari comment in the other post you made, im too lazy to go back and quote it: Its alot easier to freaking recruit to Kentucky which has the 2nd most NCAA basketball championships in history than Bradley. Are you really trying to compare john Calipari at Kentucky to recruiting to Bradley?!

[tornado]

I am, as is evident, comparing Calipari's personality to Versace's....and if it's as easy as pie to land the 5-Star Blue Chippers just because it's Kentucky, then how come Gillispie couldn't?
and no on the MO players who left.....but they unarguably left as a direct result of the coaching change

and of course there are "kids who want to play for winning programs" but half of all D-I programs are in the bottom half in any given year - yet plenty of them STILL land fine players - so how do you explain that?
Gobs of players are looking for factors OTHER THAN just a winning program - Nate Taphorn was....

- One kid we had as our top priority last spring, Tymell Murphy, spurned Bradley to go to FIU where they had just fired their coach and were rebuilding...they are NOT a "winning program"..

- and we've lost recruits to DePaul (perennial losing, last place team in their conference), Northwestern (perennial losing, bottom-dweller in their conference), and even occasionally to bottom dwellers in weaker conferences.

so the desire to play right away even if it is at a non-winning program clearly is the top criteria for some kids...

BTW - when St. John's was coming off their 3rd and 4th horrible year in a row they were still signing and landing 4-Star & 5-Star kids...
I think the personality of the coach can overcome a lot..that's how Versace got it done....and I believe we were on the verge here until a couple years ago.

lastly - is this proclamation that we MUST BE a winning program in order to get the talented kids - just another way to find an excuse in a few years to say - well you can't expect much and we need to give a few more years because he's only now getting to where he can land the players he wants...

[bradleyfan20]

- One kid we had as our top priority last spring, Tymell Murphy, spurned Bradley to go to FIU where they had just fired their coach and were rebuilding...they are NOT a "winning program"..

Let's get the FACTS straight. Tymell Murphy didn't "spurn" Bradley. He wanted to come to Bradley. Bradley couldn't get him into school because he would have ended up needing more than 9 summer hours, which is not possible with current NCAA rules. Thus, WEEKS after the Bradley situation played out, Murphy landed at FIU.

[wizard1]

Interesting GF Comment---

AMCKillip---I don't know what your problem is but you are way off base on the Versace situation.You are obviously anti DV and apparently unaware or misinformed on what really happened. So---In an effort to straighten you out(If that's possible), here goes:
First, DV did violate certain NCAA rules---However, the violations were very minor based on NCAA rules at that time, and not even close to what you have characterized as "Samson" and "Pearl" violations. The major problem was that the BU President at that time was 100% anti DV and deathly afraid of the possibility of some kind of controversy which he abhorred. He didn't like DV(Who was outspoken and at times controversial) and he didn't like the Chiefs Club who he thought would help DV cheat in recruiting. The violation was that a booster on his own accord, paid for a telephone in a recruits house and another booster on his own accord, paid for a dinner during the State tournament with DV and a recruit and his Father. In those days that was not considered a major violation since boosters were allowed to help in recruiting. The NCAA was looking for something to "Nail" Dick with. I personally paid for many dinners for recruits and that was never considered a violation at that time.
DV was not especially well liked by the NCAA due to highly publicized comments he had made during BUs run to the NIT Championship in a prior year.
Since the BU President wanted to get rid of DV , he literally "served him up" to the NCAA and did nothing to back him up in any way. He then fired DV after the NCAA over- did it with a much more severe penalty than the violations merited.
Had the President supported DV, he very likely would have stayed at BU and the BU program would have grown to great heights nationally and we would have been at least at a Butler/Gonzaga level if not even better, IMO.
Thanks to the BU Presidents fear and lack of support, DV was fired and the rest is history.
Next time you criticize AMCK, I suggest you do your homework and try to maintain some semblance of accuracy in your comments.

[Chico]

Thanks Wizard. First I ever heard of the minor violations, but I had the then BU President figured out a long time ago. Too bad. How great things could have been on the Hilltop.

[amckillip]

AMCKillip---I don't know what your problem is but you are way off base on the Versace situation.You are obviously anti DV and apparently unaware or misinformed on what really happened. So---In an effort to straighten you out(If that's possible), here goes:
First, DV did violate certain NCAA rules---However, the violations were very minor based on NCAA rules at that time, and not even close to what you have characterized as "Samson" and "Pearl" violations. The major problem was that the BU President at that time was 100% anti DV and deathly afraid of the possibility of some kind of controversy which he abhorred. He didn't like DV(Who was outspoken and at times controversial) and he didn't like the Chiefs Club who he thought would help DV cheat in recruiting. The violation was that a booster on his own accord, paid for a telephone in a recruits house and another booster on his own accord, paid for a dinner during the State tournament with DV and a recruit and his Father. In those days that was not considered a major violation since boosters were allowed to help in recruiting. The NCAA was looking for something to "Nail" Dick with. I personally paid for many dinners for recruits and that was never considered a violation at that time.
DV was not especially well liked by the NCAA due to highly publicized comments he had made during BUs run to the NIT Championship in a prior year.
Since the BU President wanted to get rid of DV , he literally "served him up" to the NCAA and did nothing to back him up in any way. He then fired DV after the NCAA over- did it with a much more severe penalty than the violations merited.
Had the President supported DV, he very likely would have stayed at BU and the BU program would have grown to great heights nationally and we would have been at least at a Butler/Gonzaga level if not even better, IMO.
Thanks to the BU Presidents fear and lack of support, DV was fired and the rest is history.
Next time you criticize AMCK, I suggest you do your homework and try to maintain some semblance of accuracy in your comments.

This is hilarious. Why would I be anti-DV? What is it with some people that if someone disagrees with them, they have an agenda. I am not anti-DV I am not pro anyone. When DV was coaching I was barely even alive.

Maybe it's because the winner writes history, but all the objective information I can find points to DV committing violations and that being the ultimate reason he was allowed to walk. I understand many BU fans say it was because he criticized the NCAA and so they were out to get him. But to me this sounds just like the Memphis fans who say Calipari didn't know Derrick Rose cheated on his ACT's etc.

I would love to be able to say it's the NCAA or BU Pres' agenda that kept BU from being a powerhouse, but without the contextual background many on here have, the objective accounts of the events don't seem to support that.

[wizard1]

Interesting GF Comment---

AMCK---I was there and I was closely involved----You were not there.

That's about as objective as I can get!
Wiz

[AZ BU Fan]

Man, has this thread been re-directed!

All I really wanted to know was, if BU is still recruiting for 2013-14, where would the scholly come from (returning player leaving or new recruit not qualifying)...

On the plus side, this is now the most viewed/replied thread I have started in a while!

[tornado]

getting back to the topic...

seems we constantly have people who claim Peoria & Bradley are easy places to recruit to....I guess you can think whatever you want but if you ask the people who know the answer to that question they will all tell you it is very hard. Peoria & Bradley have very little name recognition outside Central IL.
How many times do you go to Chicago wearing a Bradley T-shirt - and have someone ask "Bradley? Where is that?"...or when we went to Auburn Hills, Michigan and Bradley made it to the Sweet Sixteen, hundreds of people, Kansas fans, Pitt fans, and others....all asked "Bradley - where's that?"...
..and if you wear a Bradley shirt in Florida, California, or New York - most people don't care but the few who are curious ask - "Bradley? WHAT is that? Is it a college?"...then when you tell them they always respond - "You gotta be kidding - I have never even heard of it, and I have heard of Peoria but never knew where it was - is it a suburb of Milwaukee or Chicago?"

You can use the UNI argument but lots of kids from Iowa, southern MN, etc...are extremely loyal and want to stay local - Bradley does NOT have that phenomenon....sorry but we just don't - even most of the D-I talent right here in Peoria, Washington, etc....looks elsewhere - a lot don't even talk to Bradley...
and the rest of the state - hardly even know where Bradley is.... If Chin can land some talent that pays off (still yet to be determined) then it'll be helpful.

But Peoria is not a typical college town - in fact Peoria has the reputation of being a slow, podunk, hick-town....
To compare Peoria to college towns like Urbana, Lincoln, NE, Madison, WI, is hilarious...
S0 - believe what you want but our coaches have obstacles like this & others that are not of their doing nor choosing....to overcome.

If Peoria had a big state university, or if it was on the Gulf Coast, or if if was a major metro/media hub like St. Louis or Chicago, recruiting would be easier.

we giggle whenever ESPN or someone shows Peoria as a city in Indiana or Iowa but it is NOT so funny when it comes to recruiting because that's a fact - people either don't know where Peoria/Bradley is or they really have an already built-in mindset as to not care.

[Old Coach]

But Peoria is not a typical college town - in fact Peoria has the reputation of being a slow, podunk, hick-town....
To compare Peoria to college towns like Urbana, Lincoln, NE, Madison, WI, is hilarious...
S0 - believe what you want but our coaches have obstacles like this & others that are not of their doing nor choosing....to overcome.

If Peoria had a big state university, or if it was on the Gulf Coast, or if if was a major metro/media hub like St. Louis or Chicago, recruiting would be easier.

So being home to a Fortune 50 Company in CAT, a very hip company like Maui Jim, and having a burgeoning medical community, etc... makes Peoria a "slow, podunk, hick-town"? So be it. Aside from Loyola, not one of the other schools in the MVC is located in such a community, and neither are half of the schools in the Big Ten. At the end of the day, kids either want to go to the highest possible level, or play for the very best mid-major team they can. For some academic offerings are part of the decision. For others, somewhat stringent academics can be a deterrent. If Bradley starts winning at a high level, recruits will come, and it won't have anything to do with Peoria, or that it's a "slow, podunk, hick-town".

[tornado]

as always - I think you misread what I said...
I did not say Peoria IS podunk - I love Peoria and chose to live my life here...but it is hardly deniable that Peoria is PERCEIVED by many outside of Central IL as being far different than it really is..

BTW -- tell me what percentage of Chicago high school basketball players do you think could answer the question of where is the corporate headquarters of Maui Jim or even CAT -- I will bet it is FAR less than 10%
...and probably only 10% could even name the city Bradley University sits in but I guarantee they all know where Loyola, DePaul, and even NIU & ISU are...
but again - you seem to say that we won't get the best players UNTIL "Bradley starts winning at a high level"...but I say we need some of the best players WAY before then since that may not happen without the best players.

[Old Coach]

as always - I think you misread what I said...
I did not say Peoria IS podunk - I love Peoria and chose to live my life here...but it is hardly deniable that Peoria is PERCEIVED by many outside of Central IL as being far different than it really is..

BTW -- tell me what percentage of Chicago high school basketball players do you think could answer the question of where is the corporate headquarters of Maui Jim or even CAT -- I will bet it is FAR less than 10%
...and probably only 10% could even name the city Bradley University sits in but I guarantee they all know where Loyola, DePaul, and even NIU & ISU are...
but again - you seem to say that we won't get the best players UNTIL "Bradley starts winning at a high level"...but I say we need some of the best players WAY before then since that may not happen without the best players.

I didn't misread what you said, nor did I attribute the quote to you. I was only confirming that it was in your post. I don't think high school kids care for one minute about Maui Jim or CAT. The point was specific to the comparison of the community in general to other communities in the Missouri Valley Conference. Kids don't go to the school (or not go to the school) because of the city. They go to the school first because it's the highest level they can achieve. Second, because it's highly competitive at that specific level. Or third (and only occasionally) because of the academics offered. Peoria is not holding back Bradley basketball.

[tornado]

.. Peoria is not holding back Bradley basketball.

then we disagree - it is one of the factors..as is the lack of a PE major program...
I occasionally get the chance to talk with a head coach of a certain university in Macomb and he is fully aware that he went from bad to worse when he went from Peoria to Macomb...but at least WIU has a PE program and although it suffers even more from the podunk perception - it actually is in some ways, a little bit more of a prototypical college town than Peoria is.

I have sent 5 kids off to college already and all of them want at least some of this kind of stuff to look forward to...they never saw much of it in Peoria

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/TRAVEL/11/02/college.towns/t1larg.burlington.jpg

http://www.reinhartrealtors.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Downtown-Ann-Arbor.jpg

http://sc-events.s3.amazonaws.com/3721339/main.jpg

http://images.forbes.com/media/2009/05/19/college-town_athens_georgia.jpg

http://dy.snimg.com/story-image/2/58/206474/61251-650-366.jpg

http://taylortailgates.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/dtate_street.jpg

[Old Coach]

then we disagree - it is one of the factors..as is the lack of a PE major program...
I occasionally get the chance to talk with a head coach of a certain university in Macomb and he is fully aware that he went from bad to worse when he went from Peoria to Macomb...but at least WIU has a PE program and although it suffers even more from the podunk perception - it actually is in some ways, a little bit more of a prototypical college town than Peoria is.

I have sent 5 kids off to college already and all of them want at least some of this kind of stuff to look forward to...they never saw much of it in Peoria

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/TRAVEL/11/02/college.towns/t1larg.burlington.jpg

http://www.reinhartrealtors.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Downtown-Ann-Arbor.jpg

http://sc-events.s3.amazonaws.com/3721339/main.jpg

http://images.forbes.com/media/2009/05/19/college-town_athens_georgia.jpg

http://dy.snimg.com/story-image/2/58/206474/61251-650-366.jpg

http://taylortailgates.com/wp-conten...ate_street.jpg

I'm ok with disagreeing. Reasonable people can indeed disagree.

I do agree with the PE major issue, but that isn't a Peoria problem.

As far as the WIU comparison goes, sure, there is a big difference between an urban university campus like Bradley and one like WIU (which is a large part of a much smaller community). I went to school at EIU. When the students are in session, they make up nearly half of the population Charleston. That being said, staying to my point of comparing to other MVC communities, I don't believe that student athletes are more inclined to choose Terre Haute, Evansville, Cedar Falls, Carbondale, Springfield, or Wichita ahead of Peoria based on the merits of the off-campus community.

Again, I think it's ok for us to disagree on this point.