Bradley's low post players - comparison over past 25 years

[wily coyote]

Don't forget.

Jordan Clarke - 37 minutes, 20 points, 15 rebounds
Jordan Prosser - 23 minutes, 3 points, 4 rebounds

+1

[Da Coach]

...
If you take a closer look at the statistics, you will see that aside from his freshman year, which is a learning experience for most mid-major players, Will only attempted 2 three point shots in 68 games with the Jim Les offense from 2008-2011. Yet in Will's first and only year in Geno's system, he is hitting threes at a 34% rate with 63 more attempts than his total in the previous 3+ years. So I think it is very accurate to state that Geno and his staff have utilized Will Egolf's abilities far better than Jim Les!

I don't agree with your opinion.
First- He didn't attempt more 3-pointers because he wasn't good at them. 0% is still 0%. I don't think any of us would want a coach encouraging a poor 3-point shooter (0-14) to keep taking more 3-pointers. Will has improved his 3-point accuracy tremendously this year, but he himself has attributed that to the year he missed after his last surgery, when he couldn't practice, he spent a lot of extra time shooting threes.

Also, 2 year ago, under the previous coach, Will averaged 8.0 points and 4.1 rebounds. This year, with 2 more years of maturity, his numbers are 8.7 & 5.3. Not that much better. So maybe the previous staff did just as well with WE? Maybe the difference is that Will is playing farther away from the basket and avoiding as many silly fouls as he got in past years. Our inside game is weak. Maybe it would help us as much if our tallest player and one of our best rebounders wouldn't play so much of the time around the 3-point arc? In MVC games, Bradley is one of the worst rebounding teams (9th out of 10 teams in rebounding margin, and 10th in overall rebounding percentage), maybe Will would help this team more playing closer to the basket?

And, players are supposed to get better each year, so if you see improvement in WE, there could be a number of reasons. Using your logic, you must believe that Geno and his staff must not be utilizing Jordan Prosser so well. His scoring and rebounding averages are less this year than either his sophomore season, or his freshman season!

[Braves4Life]

...So maybe the previous staff did just as well with WE? ... In MVC games, Bradley is one of the worst rebounding teams (9th out of 10 teams in rebounding margin, and 10th in overall rebounding percentage)

... Geno and his staff must not be utilizing Jordan Prosser so well. His scoring and rebounding averages are less this year than either his sophomore season, or his freshman season!

When have we ever been one of the better rebounding teams in the MVC? I don't really care if Pross's averages are down... The team is winning. Maybe we now have a coach that has figured out how to utilize his players to WIN... even if it means individual averages stay the same or go down.

[Da Coach]

Yes, maybe, but that has nothing to do with what I am saying. The argument was that this staff have utilized WE better, and that is why we are improved. IMO, we are improved and winning because of improved play by our guards. Walt has become a legitimate 1st team All MVC player, and DSE has stepped up in league play. Our "bigs" are putting up numbers about the same as past years.

[Bravesfan]

I don't agree with your opinion.
First- He didn't attempt more 3-pointers because he wasn't good at them. 0% is still 0%. I don't think any of us would want a coach encouraging a poor 3-point shooter (0-14) to keep taking more 3-pointers. Will has improved his 3-point accuracy tremendously this year, but he himself has attributed that to the year he missed after his last surgery, when he couldn't practice, he spent a lot of extra time shooting threes.

Also, 2 year ago, under the previous coach, Will averaged 8.0 points and 4.1 rebounds. This year, with 2 more years of maturity, his numbers are 8.7 & 5.3. Not that much better. So maybe the previous staff did just as well with WE? Maybe the difference is that Will is playing farther away from the basket and avoiding as many silly fouls as he got in past years. Our inside game is weak. Maybe it would help us as much if our tallest player and one of our best rebounders wouldn't play so much of the time around the 3-point arc? In MVC games, Bradley is one of the worst rebounding teams (9th out of 10 teams in rebounding margin, and 10th in overall rebounding percentage), maybe Will would help this team more playing closer to the basket?

And, players are supposed to get better each year, so if you see improvement in WE, there could be a number of reasons. Using your logic, you must believe that Geno and his staff must not be utilizing Jordan Prosser so well. His scoring and rebounding averages are less this year than either his sophomore season, or his freshman season!

Sometimes players don't pan out as much as people thought they would, irregardless of the coach. Not much else can be said about that. And regarding WE's 3-point percentage, he's not a poor 3 pointer shooter anymore (maybe average, but much better than poor). So why not encourage him to take a few 3-point shots here and there as long as he's open?

[tornado]

Why do you get to be the one to make the rules as to who from the past 25 years to include on this list? If they're going to be just guys just guys that you want... and guys that you choose to exclude (POB, Zach, Cellus, etc) then you aren't allowed to make a credible and valid argument. Anyone can manipulate a set of statistics to prove a point if they get to set the parameters... to make up their own rules and criteria. It would be like arguing that Wichita St. is better than Duke or Michigan or Michigan State since WSU is in first place in their conference and those other schools are not in theirs. See, my criteria says that whoever is in first in one conference is better than another team that is not in first in their conference. Louisiana Tech is 24-3 and so therefore must be better than Michigan who is 23-4. See, my rules so best record means they're the best.

You create this great list of Bradley post players but what are the standards to be considered for that list since you have chosen to leave off select players? Is there a height requirement? Is there a position requirement? Is there a requirement based on the number of shots taken on the court? Who determines what players were "post" players, and who aren't?

Again, what gives you the right to make up these rules? Is it to consciously attempt to minimize the current Bradley coaching staff by skewing everything towards your made up rules, and then pass off your findings as facts. And, if your made up rules are indeed "fact" then what you're attempting to suggest (in a very passive aggressive way) is that the current Bradley coaching staff is not actually over-achieving with this group of players but rather under-achieving. I imagine in your world that this current group of players would probably be doing much better under different leadership.

what the hey are you talking about - I DID INCLUDE Zach & POB .. I just didn't include Cellus because he virtually NEVER played the position I defined.
Heck - even Taylor Brown rarely played the "5" as did Jake once or twice - but their SEASON STATS are not defined by what they did playing that position because they were OUTSIDE players.
I guess I am stunned that as clearly as I defined the criteria and as accurate as those numbers are - you still find some ridiculous ad-hominem argument and CHOOSE not to actually address the facts!

weird -- I post exactly what I defined I was posting - then you object but don't bother to name even one player I might have left out...
seriously - if you think I manipulated the numbers then tell me who was left out??

I stated plainly I included those who played predominately low post - maybe you have trouble defining that but I don't...
Even using Reggie Hall was a stretch but that one season he did play almost exclusively a low post, back-to-the-basket center - but he played a SF/wing other times.

I stand by those numbers and your complete inability to refute them shows you have no legitimate response to the obvious conclusion that we DO HAVE decent low post players currently.

BTW - Cellus & Deon were NOT predominately low post centers - maybe you could stretch the point with Cage but since his very BEST season was 2000-2001 when Jeff Rabey was a senior playing the low post - and STILL Cage averaged just 9 & 6 - how the heck would that influence the overall conclusion one iota?? It's just more irrelevant babbling.
The one year he played before that when Rabey didn't play as much Cage averaged 7 & 4 and thus really doesn't even dent the list!

The degree of nit-picking has reached an all time message board high!

[Braves4Life]

I'm sorry... I just can't stop laughing long enough to post. Obviously, when everyone else gets it but you do not then there are just Irreconcilable Differences... A Failure to Communicate. You never cease to amaze me t.

I get it... Our post players are great. The Valley is down. Yet, we still finish in the lower half. Can't you see your contradiction here? Or is that your point? To attempt to disparage the current coaching staff. Come on man! Eventually, scientists stopped arguing that the world was not flat...

[tornado]

so, for the record, you think Tyshon Pickett, Jordan Prosser, and Will Egolf are beyond disappointments, they are not even legitimate D-I low post players?? In fact - seems some think none of our players are D-I caliber - we need to clean house and bring in all new guys...

...but in the only games Will Egolf sat out and was unable to play and the game Tyshon misses minutes because of fouls, and even the game we lost DSE just for a half due to back spasms...
In each of those games - the missing player just happened to coincide with a sudden tendency to get blown out (31 pts to UNI, 34 pts to WSU, 19 pt blowout in just the 2nd half to ISU)
I think it's pretty solid proof of just how valuable those guys are....
recall when JL left there was talk of DSE leaving, and Will's 6th year is pure good fortune....I think they're more valuable than people are crediting because they still hold to their agenda to discredit the guy who recruited them.

[Braves4Life]

so, for the record, you think Tyshon Pickett, Jordan Prosser, and Will Egolf are beyond disappointments, they are not even legitimate D-I low post players?? In fact - seems some think none of our players are D-I caliber - we need to clean house and bring in all new guys...

I think it's pretty solid proof of just how valuable those guys are....I think they're more valuable than people are crediting because they still hold to their agenda to discredit the guy who recruited them.

OK, tornado. This is a point that we can agree on. These three guys are legitimate D1 players, no doubt about that. I am not in "that" camp in saying we have no D1-caliber players. However, it can logically be argued that both Prosser and Egolf under performed over their careers since both were brought in with great fanfare and hype... I don't thing either have lived up to their perceived potential. Do you? In fact, all three of these players would be hard pressed to start for a Wichita State or a Creighton. I wish we had the luxury of bringing Pross and Egolf in off the bench for 12 minutes per game; we don't. Our problem is, and has been for years, the lack of depth on our roster from both big men down to point guard. It was a problem with the previous coach... It has been a problem with the current coach. I'm hopeful that the problem will be eliminated within the next two seasons... I know you are, too.

[lake Camelot]

I think it's pretty solid proof of just how valuable those guys are....
recall when JL left there was talk of DSE leaving, and Will's 6th year is pure good fortune....I think they're more valuable than people are crediting because they still hold to their agenda to discredit the guy who recruited them.

I didn't think that was what this whole thread was about.

I thought we weren't bringing that stuff up any more in threads.

[Old Coach]

so, for the record, you think Tyshon Pickett, Jordan Prosser, and Will Egolf are beyond disappointments, they are not even legitimate D-I low post players?? In fact - seems some think none of our players are D-I caliber - we need to clean house and bring in all new guys...

As many times as you have dipped your bucket into that well it has to be bone dry; like Sahara Desert dry.

[Bravesfan]

what the hey are you talking about - I DID INCLUDE Zach & POB .. I just didn't include Cellus because he virtually NEVER played the position I defined.
Heck - even Taylor Brown rarely played the "5" as did Jake once or twice - but their SEASON STATS are not defined by what they did playing that position because they were OUTSIDE players.
I guess I am stunned that as clearly as I defined the criteria and as accurate as those numbers are - you still find some ridiculous ad-hominem argument and CHOOSE not to actually address the facts!

weird -- I post exactly what I defined I was posting - then you object but don't bother to name even one player I might have left out...
seriously - if you think I manipulated the numbers then tell me who was left out??

I stated plainly I included those who played predominately low post - maybe you have trouble defining that but I don't...
Even using Reggie Hall was a stretch but that one season he did play almost exclusively a low post, back-to-the-basket center - but he played a SF/wing other times.

I stand by those numbers and your complete inability to refute them shows you have no legitimate response to the obvious conclusion that we DO HAVE decent low post players currently.

BTW - Cellus & Deon were NOT predominately low post centers - maybe you could stretch the point with Cage but since his very BEST season was 2000-2001 when Jeff Rabey was a senior playing the low post - and STILL Cage averaged just 9 & 6 - how the heck would that influence the overall conclusion one iota?? It's just more irrelevant babbling.
The one year he played before that when Rabey didn't play as much Cage averaged 7 & 4 and thus really doesn't even dent the list!

The degree of nit-picking has reached an all time message board high!

Come on Tornado! Why are you jumping all over B4L? I don't think he was trying to skew facts. If he missed a few, then correct him. But there's no reason to jump all over someone because of that!

[tornado]

nobody gets "jumped on" and "ganged up on" any more than I do - so I find it a little funny when we see some hypocrisy of those who dish it but can't take it
Time and again when my posts (or I) come under attack, for being vastly wrong - all I ask is one tiny example of one fact that's wrong - and yet nobody seems to ever find one..
so I let the facts speak for themselves - anyone else is free to accept or ignore...

[Bravesfan]

nobody gets "jumped on" and "ganged up on" any more than I do - so I find it a little funny when we see some hypocrisy of those who dish it but can't take it
Time and again when my posts (or I) come under attack, for being vastly wrong - all I ask is one tiny example of one fact that's wrong - and yet nobody seems to ever find one..
so I let the facts speak for themselves - anyone else is free to accept or ignore...

Fine. Fair enough. I will let you handle these responses on a post by post basis. I just hope that we can continue to have civilized discussions here (that goes for anyone here) because this has been a great place to post and keep up to date with all things Bradley basketball over the years. I sincerely believe this program is on the upswing, and I think people will be pleasantly surprised with how good a team we will be within a couple of years. If not, then I'm sure the discussions will increase on who to bring in here next.

[BU212121]

not sure what a "low post center" is

But typicaly each teams has 2 low post players, cellus, deon, and cage were most certainly low post players and would qualify in any discussion as low post players..