Creighton and the new Catholic 7 league

[TheAsianSensation]

He mentions
Saint Louis
Dayton
Richmond
VCU

but if Bradley can perform well, make runs in the NCAA Tourney, then within a couple years we could be back on that list -- I hope we can get it done...

Being "back on that list" would imply that Bradley would have ever been in a position to be on the shortlist. I don't think BU would've been on that list in the last 25 years.

Of course, as we've learned with VCU and Butler, a final four run can do a lot for your future.

I think 16 is the magic number. If for some reason they want 16 teams, that's in our range.

[tornado]

I don't recall Richmond or Dayton in the Final Four recently and they are on the list...

Dayton draws very well - and they have had a few more 20-win seasons, but they have no more NCAA Tourney success than we do.

Richmond has had one run of THREE consecutive 20-win seasons (2008-11), other than that - they are well under .500 in the current coach's tenure - not even "mediocre"...they draw poorly - barely more than half of what we were drawing just 4-5 years ago --

...if what you are saying is that Bradley never has nor never will have a chance at being "Big East caliber" then you are going against our school's President & AD who were hopeful enough to make a big pitch to get in.
If their plan is to get to 16 teams then who are the six teams that are any better than we are trying to get on that list?
I believe we have a chance and will again in the future - but we'd have to start winning more, get to the NCAA Tourney, maybe win some games there, and get our attendance back up to around 10,000 - all of which were things we WERE doing until staff changes were mandated...

[TheAsianSensation]

Conference realignment is more than just on-court success (or on-field football success even). Market is a big deal. That's why Maryland and Rutgers are in the B1G. That's how Butler sneaked in - obviously the final 4s are the biggest reason, but they also have a new unique market to bring to the networks. Omaha isn't a big market, but it is a different area not covered by any other school. Bradley on the other hand, would overlap with DePaul on one end and St Louis on the other.

That's the reason Dayton isn't already in - they overlap with Xavier and it looks like the TV networks said nope. That's why Richmond is on the board - they bring the state of Virginia into play. Make no mistake - FOX has a hand in this. They paid a lot of money for their rights to the conference. They will have a role in who the conference adds next.

I believe we have a chance and will again in the future - but we'd have to start winning more, get to the NCAA Tourney, maybe win some games there, and get our attendance back up to around 10,000 - all of which were things we WERE doing until staff changes were mandated...

We weren't. We made 1 tourney, won 2 games there. That wasn't enough. We weren't winning enough. As far as on-court criteria go, we needed to show one of two things - being a consistent winner, or having a great peak season. Being a consistent winner establishes that we can go to the new conference and be competitive. Having a great peak means we can make NCAA tourney runs and get exposure and money for the conference. A sweet 16 is a great peak, but in terms of realignment, doesn't differentiate us from another half-dozen or so S16 teams that would be in contention for the spot. We weren't enough of a consistent winner, since it's been forever since we've had a podium finish in the MVC. We need more 20-9 regular seasons, not 16-13. And only the one tourney.

Comparing us to Dayton, Dayton also made one NCAAs, and 3 NITs. We made the deeper NCAA run of course, but to the BEast's eyes, our on-court resume is roughly equivalent. Richmond had a S16 run and another tourney appearance, but no NITs. We'd probably be even with them on resume too. And those two teams have a better market than Peoria. Game, set, match.

Attendance is the one thing we had that was definitely good enough for the Big East. That needs to be fixed.

[TheAsianSensation]

If their plan is to get to 16 teams then who are the six teams that are any better than we are trying to get on that list?

Whoops, forgot to answer this one


St Louis is a given
Dayton for the reasons outlined above
Richmond for the reasons outlined above
VCU is apparently on their list - I'm skeptical of that - I think in 5-10 years, if Shaka leaves, we'll have a better shot, but not right now
Wichita State - if they're letting public schools (VCU) have a chance, then Wichita has to enter the conversation
Detroit Mercy - private Catholic in a big market. Need to improve basketball, but worth the chance IMO
Siena - private Catholic. Another team in NY, could help market. Has shown competency in basketball
St Joseph's - has the market problem, but otherwise has the tools for success
Holy Cross - private Catholic. Needs more on-court consistency, but they bring the Boston market

Then I think you can put Bradley in the next tier with schools like Drake, Duquesne, etc. - schools in middling to bad markets, privates who fit the academic mold. So if Bradley starts winning a bunch and winning big, I think we start leaping the bottom teams on the list above.

[tornado]

the nation is loaded with smaller Catholic schools like Detroit (Canisius, Holy Cross, Manhattan, Niagara, Duquesne-in Pittsburgh, Iona, LMU, St. Bonny's, Seattle, San Diego..etc...
..many of which are in FAR, FAR bigger markets even than even Detroit or certainly Omaha) who have home attendances of 2,000-2,500- or little more - and it is a no brainer as to why those schools aren't even remotely being considered...

so if the size of the market were the main factor then obviously we'd be hearing the names Manhattan, Holy Cross, & Iona a whole lot more - but obviously we are NOT.

I believe if we were still 9,000-10,000 as we were for 20 years right up 'til the plummeting of home attendance figures the past couple years - that we'd be a far better consideration than Detroit...
I think even a cursory review of the schools that the BIG EAST is considering will support that the main factors are ..
-basketball prowess & tradition
-ability to draw - home attendance/size of home arena - if their home arena only holds 4,000 (like Duquesne's) then that wouldn't even hold the visiting crowd from the bigger schools
-Catholic - can hardly doubt this is an important factor - tho some appear to discount it
-maybe market size would fit in about here, but the perception of the candidate being a basketball school - and the intangibles they bring to the table also fit about here...



one last comment - up 'til about a decade ago - Butler had virtually NOTHING on us had the "new Big East" been shopping in the early 2000's...
...but....in just the past decade Butler has put together a run of several seasons that have made a HUGE difference - or in the words of one of our local writers - "LIGHT YEARS DIFFERENT"
..the BIGGEST part of that difference is the run of Final Fours and 25-30-win seasons that they've put together since 2007...
Everything else they have - old arena, seating capacity, they were in a lousy little conference, etc...everything else we probably had them beat..
BUT - as far as Butler has zoomed UPWARD in their desirability to the Big East in the past 7 years - we have ZOOMED DOWNWARD in my opinion.
So - give Butler credit - they positioned themselves WELL at this current time - but question how and why we are where we are.....
...positioned way worse in the past 7 years than we were at any times since Stan Albeck. Gotta ask - who is captain of the ship?

[TheAsianSensation]

so if the size of the market were the main factor then obviously we'd be hearing the names Manhattan, Holy Cross, & Iona a whole lot more - but obviously we are NOT.

Market is a main factor still. Xavier adds Cincinnati and Butler adds Indianapolis. Two new states, too. They just happen to have a marquee basketball program attached to it. And some of the NYC and Philly teams are duplicates of 'Nova and St John's, of course.

You're underestimating TV. FOX is paying couple hundred million over a lot of years to broadcast this conference. The conference is going to only add teams that either increase revenue or keep it steady. Market is a big part of that television factor. The landscape of college sports has changed a lot in the last 10 years with respect to media coverage. There's so much more money available compared to 10 years ago.

One thing you're right on is attendance, 6.5k is not 10k. 10k helps more. But even at 6.5k, we still dwarf most other candidates on the board. There's not many candidates between 6.5k and 10k, so I don't think declining attendance is as big a factor as you think.

So - give Butler credit - they positioned themselves WELL at this current time - but question how and why we are where we are.....
...positioned way worse in the past 7 years than we were at any times since Stan Albeck. Gotta ask - who is captain of the ship?

Past 7 years....now why choose that time frame? I don't see much difference in status over the last 25 years or so.

Bradley definitely has the academic standing to make it in a league like the Big East. So the issue is athletic. And if basketball is king, then the blame lays at the basketball program.

So if we're blaming anyone recent, it's Jim Les for not doing a good enough job. But to be clear, about 90% of all coaches would've "failed" in this context of not doing a good enough job to get Big East interest.



And for the record, I think the Big East made a mistake on Butler. They bought into a program at its absolute peak, which has been down in down times. I am willing to bet they already regret it.

[tornado]

..
Past 7 years....now why choose that time frame? ...

as I said that is the interval where Butler has put "light years" between themselves and us...they have succeeded in doing over the past 6-7 years what every school - certainly every mid-major - dreams of doing..and they have done it with virtually ZERO advantage and zero benefits that WE DON'T HAVE!! Plus they've done it on a smaller budget!
Don't tell you haven't got the tiniest bit of jealousy that they've been able to do it - but...
.. not only have we not - we've actually fallen way further from being able to do it over that interval - by a margin equal to how much they've improved!

They have improved their "marketability" to a BIG conference tremendously in that span, and we have dropped just as significantly..
I am not ashamed that I would like to do JUST AS WELL & improve ourselevs...
- why are so many "fans" happy to be worse in the past 6-7 years rather than LOTS better?
As I said - 7 years ago - we both had serious winning traditions, 20-win seasons, NCAA appearances & wins, we even had a Sweet 16 to go with theirs in 2003 (but then they missed the NCAA in 2004, '05, '06), and we had a better track record on attendance.


...one last thing ...from the mid-2000's thru around 2010 we saw multiple reports & stories on Bradley's successful fund raising and record donations!! Now we've lost a lot of that momentum...those giving want to see some winning to go with their support. Now we are having trouble giving away free breakfasts with the coach - you wanna wait 'til our fan support all but dies out before we discuss the seriousness of those losses?
Hey - even if I am the only one there I will still be supporting my team - but I am stunned to see support melting away so fast, while some fans are apparently happy to see it heading in that direction. Laughing while being hit with fallout & cheering the very moves that have seriously hurt our fan support.

[bradleyfan124]

One simple ingredient for this. They said it in Cinderella Man. ....WIN!!!!!

[tornado]

ok 124 - lemme ask....
of the preseason projections being released - all seem to have Bradley in the middle - maybe 3-4-5- 6th in the MVC...and yet I see and read that makes some fans "optimistic" and others dang-near giddy...

so now we're happy with 4th?? ... I am hopeful of way better....

BP just reiterated this..
"The mission of Bradley Athletics is to provide every student-athlete the
opportunity for both a championship experience and a distinctive education."

[TheAsianSensation]

as I said that is the interval where Butler has put "light years" between themselves and us...they have succeeded in doing over the past 6-7 years what every school - certainly every mid-major - dreams of doing..and they have done it with virtually ZERO advantage and zero benefits that WE DON'T HAVE!! Plus they've done it on a smaller budget!
Don't tell you haven't got the tiniest bit of jealousy that they've been able to do it - but...
.. not only have we not - we've actually fallen way further from being able to do it over that interval - by a margin equal to how much they've improved!

They have improved their "marketability" to a BIG conference tremendously in that span, and we have dropped just as significantly..
I am not ashamed that I would like to do JUST AS WELL & improve ourselevs...
- why are so many "fans" happy to be worse in the past 6-7 years rather than LOTS better?
As I said - 7 years ago - we both had serious winning traditions, 20-win seasons, NCAA appearances & wins, we even had a Sweet 16 to go with theirs in 2003 (but then they missed the NCAA in 2004, '05, '06), and we had a better track record on attendance.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm jealous they're translated this into the Big East. And you're right, they did it with less resources than we have, even.

What did they do different? They fell into the next great coach, and they had 6 great weeks. 3 tournament weeks, across 2 tournaments. That's all. They binked 2 final fours. Now, they converted it into solid gold, but still. That's the only difference between them and us. They won big in March. Why did Bradley fall back? Because they didn't make final fours. It's tough to blame anyone for that.

So 7 years ago, we were basically the same, Bradley and Butler. 2 final fours changed everything. I don't think we can criticize Bradley for failing to do what Butler did.

And all this ties in to why I think the BEast made a mistake, investing in Butler's peak without realizing their non-peak value isn't good. We can provide a much better non-peak value than Butler....but since Butler has peaked and actually provided value from that, they are in a much better position.

[cpacmel]

so now we're happy with 4th?? ... I am hopeful of way better....

Just an outsider here, but it sure seems your tune has changed. You seemed pretty happy / content under Coach Les for 9 years. He never finished over 4th, right? And after 9 seasons of never finishing over 4th, weren't you against his being replaced?

[cpacmel]

BTW, I think much of this comes down to market size.

[tornado]

my tune has never changed - I want to win and always want to do better -- but you act like we're already there -- LOL
but I was one of the few who foresaw the tremendous fallout in the face of many predictions that we would be instantly much better.
Remember all those nice sayings like don't throw the baby out with the bath water, and be careful what you wish for...
Like I say - I have not changed - I am just pointing out who it is that has changed - it is the fans who wanted JL fired so badly that they were willing to tank 3-4 years of our program to get it done - people who cheered for us to lose in St. Louis so JL wouldn't get retained, people who hated being 4th but now HAVE CHANGED & anxiously look forward to maybe finishing 4th this year in a weak year!
Some mask their excitement of mediocrity by being excited about "6th most improved" or "more athletic"..

if you think my tune has changed - show me where it was any different - I think it has always been remarkably the same

[bradleyfan124]

I am for improvement each year. Then a consistent positive trend of winning each year. I dont expect homeruns all the time. Just significant improvement

[TheAsianSensation]

given that no midmajor outside of perhaps Butler - and that's gonna end soon - ever gets a home run every year...
perhaps we should start with the concept that getting a home run once in a while is the best we're likely to ever do...

I actually like the analogy and want to carry it further....

Butler hit home runs. HRs may be unrealistic to consistently hit, but we should hit the occasional one, with some doubles. In the last decade or so, we've had a triple (S16 year), a couple of singles, and a bunch of outs. We need to hit more doubles, and turn more outs into singles.

I saw that major changes were going to put us in the bottom of the Valley and not necessarily get us to the top any quicker or more likely anyway --

We were already in the bottom of the Valley. And yes, making a change might result in not getting to the top anytime quick. But if your current option can't get you there, you have to try and find an option that does. Whether or not that new coach succeeds or fails doesn't prove right or wrong the decision to get rid of the current option.

Like I say - I have not changed - I am just pointing out who it is that has changed - it is the fans who wanted JL fired so badly that they were willing to tank 3-4 years of our program to get it done - people who cheered for us to lose in St. Louis so JL wouldn't get retained, people who hated being 4th but now HAVE CHANGED & anxiously look forward to maybe finishing 4th this year in a weak year!

We weren't willing to take 3-4 years, Les was tanking it himself! We didn't get rid of JL for being tired of finishing 4th, we got rid of him to eventually get better than 4th place! No one is cheering for finishing 4th this year, we're cheering because we think we're finishing 4th this year on the way to a 1st or 2nd in the next year or two!




And now I'll stop because a realignment thread has morphed into a Les thread.