Big East Catholic Schools Getting Restless

[Gary the Gargoyle]

I don't entirely agree. I think the MVC can survive without Creighton, or any of the current members. It wouldn't be easy to replace them with a school equal to them now, but recall that Creighton was not always a basketball power. But there would be no shortage of schools that would like to get into the MVC.

Again, these programs are not where Creighton is right now, but they could benefit and thrive in the MVC.
Here are a lot of good midmajor private schools:
Horizon members- Detroit (which was a member of the MVC from 1949-50 and 1956-57), Valpo, and Loyola (how nice would it be to have a Chicago school in the MVC, and they would jump at the chance)
Ohio Valley- Belmont (they are the only private school in the OVC)
Southland- Oral Roberts (the MVC makes a lot more sense for them- they are the only private school in the Southland)
WAC- Denver, which is a private school, would give the MVC another large market, though it is geographically remote from the rest of the MVC.
Atlantic 10- If St. Louis is not included with the ex-Big East Catholic schools, they would be perfect for the MVC. They were members of the MVC in the past (1937-1943, 1944-1974), and some people there feel it was a mistake to get into the A-10.
And if the A-10 falls apart, there are a bunch of other good private schools to look at.

And also a lot of good public schools to consider-
MAC- Akron, Toledo, Ohio, NIU, and others (all 12 members of the MAC are public schools)
Other Horizon members- Cleveland St., Illinois Chicago, Wisconsin-GB, UW-Milwaukee.
Ohio Valley- Murray State would be the most attractive now, but 11 of the 12 schools are public .
Sunbelt- Western Kentucky would make the most sense, and they would probably jump at the chance to get out of the Sunbelt to get into the MVC.

Bemont makes sense. If they aren't the only non-football school in the OVC, they're one of two maybe. I'd also love for the league to expand to Nashville.

No way the MAC schools have any interest in the MVC.

For that matter, I see at least on MVC member leaving for the MAC in the near future.

[Da Coach]

No way the MAC schools have any interest in the MVC.

I agree with this, but only because they are all football schools and could not afford to give up MAC football for MVFC football.
IMO, many MAC schools would trade the MAC for the MVC if it was only for basketball. But I still believe there might be one or two of the MAC schools that would consider moving to the MVC, if they could work out a deal to still play football with the MAC.
Note that the MAC does already have an affiliate school just for football in UMass.

http://espn.go.com/blog/ncfnation/post/_/id/41083/umass-joins-mac

[Da Coach]

Chicago Tribune article-

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-depaul-catholic-schools-big-east-20121213,0,3403239.story

DePaul, Marquette, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's and Villanova -- are splitting from the conference. The schools are working on the details of the departure, a plan that "literally changes by the hour," a source told the Tribune.

Multiple reports Thursday said the seven schools will form a new conference and add other members that share a basketball emphasis. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, citing Marquette sources, said Butler and Xavier will leave the Atlantic 10 for the new conference, with Creighton, Dayton, Saint Louis and Virginia Commonwealth other candidates for membership in what would be a 10- or 12-team conference.

The only potential holdup is Georgetown struggling with the idea of leaving the Big East, the paper said.

First time I've seen Virginia Commonwealth mentioned in this discussion. Richmond, Virginia is only a little larger than the Peoria area, so they now seem to be considering non-Catholic schools that do not represent large population areas or media markets.

Also- several highly rated recruits are re-thinking their commitments to Big East schools in view of the conference fragmenting.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/recruiting/blog/eye-on-college-basketball-recruiting/21401857/recruits-react-to-the-big-east-split-does-it-matter

[Rusty 54]

Imaginary phone transcripts from Doug Elgin yesterday:

Well played.

[stevebu91]

JMHO.... I will be disgusted if the dustle settles and BU isn't in a primarily basketball conference with like private schools. We'll need the east coast leftover A10s for this and a midwest division. Besides proximity, the MVC publics have very little in common with us. I suspect, or would hope, that Cross, the Trustees, and Glasser will use their east coast connections. We'll go with Drake and have our private school party in a room down from the Catholic schools. We wont get the suite though like them, but it will be better than kitchen scraps from the MVC remainderman.

[tornado]

JMHO.... I will be disgusted if the dustle settles and BU isn't in a primarily basketball conference with like private schools. ...

I think the talk that Butler & VCU are involved in the discussion proves beyond doubt that even BRADLEY would also be in the talk had we been in a better CURRENT position...

Back more than a decade Butler was finishing 6-22, 11-17...etc...and surely nobody'd have wanted to grab them from their conference during that time span - and obviously it didn't happen.

And likewise - just a little over a decade ago - VCU went thru a stretch of 9-19, 15-16, 14-14, 16-14.....and again - had they NOT turned it around and become a consistent 20-win team - absolutely NOBODY would be mentioning them today - as the OBVIOUSLY now are...
and we were on our way there with several consecutive 20+ win seasons then something happened.

Thus - Bradley would potentially have been in that discussion were we still winning 20+ games per year as we did in the mid-1990's and again from 2005-2006 thru 2008-2009...
But we haven't been and we aren't....

note - in the 16 years between '93 & '09 we had 19, 20, or more games won in eight of those years - and only 5 of those 16 were losing seasons...and only TWO were more than a game from NOT being a losing season...
We have to get back to the consistency of winning........we have to look at what factors have led to our first single-digit-win season since the end of the Albeck era...

[Rusty 54]

I think the talk that Butler & VCU are involved in the discussion proves beyond doubt that even BRADLEY would also be in the talk had we been in a better CURRENT position...

Back more than a decade Butler was finishing 6-22, 11-17...etc...and surely nobody'd have wanted to grab them from their conference during that time span - and obviously it didn't happen.

And likewise - just a little over a decade ago - VCU went thru a stretch of 9-19, 15-16, 14-14, 16-14.....and again - had they NOT turned it around and become a consistent 20-win team - absolutely NOBODY would be mentioning them today - as the OBVIOUSLY now are...
and we were on our way there with several consecutive 20+ win seasons then something happened.

Thus - Bradley would potentially have been in that discussion were we still winning 20+ games per year as we did thru much of the past decade and as we did thru most of the JL tenure beyond the first three seasons.
But we haven't been and we aren't....

note - in the 16 years between '93 & '09 we had 19, 20, or more games won in eight of those years - and only 5 of those 16 were losing seasons...and only TWO were more than a game from NOT being a losing season...
We have to get back to the consistency of winning........we have to look at what factors have led to our first single-digit-win season since the end of the Albeck era...

Agree that we have to get back to winning.

VCU made the NCAA tournament in 2004, 2007, 2009, 2011 (Final Four), and 2012.

Butler made the NCAA tournament in 2001, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 (Championship Game), 2011 (Championship Game).

Both are more desirable media markets than Peoria.

I don't think it is about 20-win seasons. It's about NCAA Tournament success and media markets.

[TheAsianSensation]

It's absolutely not about 20-win seasons. And everything about Final Fours, media exposure, and markets. Don't play the 20-win season card unless you think it was going to translate into Sweet 16s or Final Fours immediately.

Actually to be honest, I'm a bit surprised at the VCU love everyone has - Richmond (the university) covers the same market and has more resources. It's just that VCU has the one run. I would expect everyone to be more rational than that.

While Richmond (the city) isn't that bigger than Peoria, its location is much better. Richmond is in a state not covered by the Catholic 7. Peoria has DePaul to the north and St Louis to the south (if the Billikens go to the new conference). If the new league can penetrate southern Illinois with St Louis and the northern part with DePaul, then why fill in the middle?

[JMM28]

I think the talk that Butler & VCU are involved in the discussion proves beyond doubt that even BRADLEY would also be in the talk had we been in a better CURRENT position...

Back more than a decade Butler was finishing 6-22, 11-17...etc...and surely nobody'd have wanted to grab them from their conference during that time span - and obviously it didn't happen.

And likewise - just a little over a decade ago - VCU went thru a stretch of 9-19, 15-16, 14-14, 16-14.....and again - had they NOT turned it around and become a consistent 20-win team - absolutely NOBODY would be mentioning them today - as the OBVIOUSLY now are...
and we were on our way there with several consecutive 20+ win seasons then something happened.

Thus - Bradley would potentially have been in that discussion were we still winning 20+ games per year as we did in the mid-1990's and again from 2005-2006 thru 2008-2009...
But we haven't been and we aren't....

note - in the 16 years between '93 & '09 we had 19, 20, or more games won in eight of those years - and only 5 of those 16 were losing seasons...and only TWO were more than a game from NOT being a losing season...
We have to get back to the consistency of winning........we have to look at what factors have led to our first single-digit-win season since the end of the Albeck era...

Yeah I think we all wish BU could have capitalized on the Sweet 16 run to go on a Butlerish type run of tourney appearances. Unfortunately we took the Weber State path to nothingness.

[thefish7]

First time I've seen Virginia Commonwealth mentioned in this discussion. Richmond, Virginia is only a little larger than the Peoria area, so they now seem to be considering non-Catholic schools that do not represent large population areas or media markets.

Not trying to be argumentative, but isn't Richmond over a 1M for metro area? That'd make it like 4 times larger than Peoria.

[thefish7]

I think, at this point, the best short to medium term outcome could be that Dayton and/or SLU get left out of the new league, which should give us a shot to go after either one for the MVC. If Xavier and Butler are out of the A10 it's not much of a league anymore, so I'd think we might be able to get ahold of either or both of those schools.

[BUBalum05]

Not trying to be argumentative, but isn't Richmond over a 1M for metro area? That'd make it like 4 times larger than Peoria.

Richmond metro is probably over a million, but the city itself is close to the size of Peoria with the same feel. On the east coast though, its largely irrelevant since its not between DC and Boston. Even though VCU is there, speaking as a resident of Virginia, people do not associate the school with the city, its our capital first. You're really not gaining a significant east coast market here. VCU fits the A10/MVC alignment very well.

[Bravesfan]

Then - then there's the chance that when they get to a conference with Georgetown, Marquette, Xavier, etc...they might just find themselves perennially in the basement in a lot of sports - especially basketball...and also outcoached at that level - as you recall when McDermott was at a BCS school (Iowa State) - he couldn't even beat the midmajors, and routinely got hammered by Valleyteams....
Sure they are very good this year - but this is possibly an aberration due to one tremendously talented kid who will be gone shortly...not to mention that Greg McDermott still doesn't have much of an NCAA resume...
The guy has been coaching 20 years, yet has only gone to the NCAA 4 times - three of which were at UNI and they never won a single game - and then they won ONE game last year despite a 29 win season.

Totally agreed on this. Just ask DePaul and Providence. How well has that move to the Big East done them?

And then there are the likes of perennial bottom dwellers like Fordham and LaSalle in the A-10. Even Northwestern with several NIT appearances still can't get over that NCAA Tournament hump either. No guarantees when moving to "greener pastures", though the payoff obviously would be huge if they could make it work. But that's a lot easier said than done.

[Bravesfan]

Imaginary phone transcripts from Doug Elgin yesterday:

--2:00pm--
DePaul Athletics Receptionist: DePaul Athletics, how may I direct your call?
Doug Elgin: Hi, this is Doug Elgin, Commissioner of the Missouri Valley Conference, I'd like to speak to your AD about joining the Valley.
Receptionist: Let me check if he's available, please hold. (Sweet Home Chicago hold music)
-Receptionst intercom to AD: Hey, its MVC, they want us to join the Valley.
-DePaul AD to intercom: HAHAHAHA! Put him through.
DePaul AD: Hello Doug, what can I do for you today?
DE: I've been hearing that you guys are thinking about disolving the Big East. I think that DePaul would be a great addition to our conference because of the proximity to our schools and the expansion of the MVC into Chicagoland. We'll move all of our tournaments up there too. Think of the travel you guys can save having to fly all over the country trying to keep up with all those football schools. Since the Big East is likely dissolving, why don't you come to a stable conference that can build up your athletics program. You have to admit, its been a pretty rough time playing those Big East team, no?
DePaul AD: Yeah, it would be nice to get to play some weak teams occasionally. Saving on travel would be nice, but I can't remember where all of your schools are though, aren't they all south of I-80?
DE: No, Northern Iowa is significantly north of I-80 in Cedar Falls, Creighton is 2 miles north of I-80 in Omaha, and Drake is only 2 miles south of I-80 in Des Moines.
[Click]
DE: Regardless, you should be able to fly direct to almost every city in the Valley out of Chicago. So what do you think about joining? [Silence] Hello? Hello?

DE: Oh rats...Maybe Marquette won't be so pretentious since Milwaukee isn't as big as Chicago. I'll give them a call.

--2:02pm--
Marquette Athletics Receptionist: Good afternoon, Marquette Athletics, how may I direct your call?
Doug Elgin: Hi, this is Doug Elgin, Commissioner of the Missouri Valley Conference, I'd like to speak to your AD about joining the MVC.
MU Athletics Receptionist: Let me check if he's available, please hold. (Beer Barrel Polka hold music)
-MU Receptionst intercom to AD: Hey, its another conference trying to get us to join.
-MU AD: Is it the A-10? I've been waiting for their call. I'm sick of having to talk to these guys like Conference USA trying to get us to come back or the Horizon thinking that a UW Milwaukke rivalry would be a good fit.
-MU Receptionist: No, MVC.
-MU AD to intercom: Oh lord, I need a laugh, put him through.
MU AD: Hi Mr Elgin, can I call you Dirk? So Dirk, what makes you think that you and the lowly MVC schools are worthy of playing our caliber athletic teams? Our basketball program is consistently in the Sweet 16.
DE: Its Doug, sir. I think that Marquette would be a great addition to our conference because of the proximity to our schools and the expansion of the MVC into a major midwest market like Milwaukee. Since the Big East is likely dissolving, why don't you come to a stable conference who isn't looking to compete with the BCS football money grab.
MU AD: So you like Milwaukee? It is a great midwestern city, lots of history, strong sports following. I'm amazed we never considered joining the MVC previously.
DE: Yeah, me too. Milwaukee fits the profile very well for an MVC school.
MU AD: So why don't you call UW Milwaukee?
DE: Haha, good one, we're not worried about the Horizon schools, they're just low mid-majors now that Butler left. We want to add some quality programs to challenge Creighton, otherwise they might leave us.
MU AD: So you guys are scrambling to keep together the best you have or else you're going to become irrelevant?
DE: Yeah, I guess I was a little to candid with you there.
MU AD: Guess so. We'll let you know what happens. We might be in touch about Creighton's exit fee. Thanks for the call. [Hangs up]

DE: Man, I really thought that would have gone better. We've got a lot going for us in our little midwest footprint. Maybe I should see about expanding the footprint out east...hmm, who should I call?

--2:04pm--
Georgetown Athletics Receptionist: (Hmm, where is this area code from on the caller ID) Thank you for calling Georgetown Athletics, how may I help you today?
Doug Elgin: Hi, this is Doug Elgin, Commissioner of the Missouri Valley Conference, I'd like to speak to your AD about joining the MVC.
Receptionist: I'm sorry, you said, the Mississippi Valley?
DE: No, Missouri Valley, you know the 10 team midwestern conference that includes Creighton and Bradley. Creighton has been a national force in college basketball for a few years now and Bradley claims that Harvard is the Bradley of the midwest.
Receptionist: Oh, impressive. Well I'm sorry, our AD is on the phone right now. I'll let him know you called. [Click]
DE: Well, do you need my number? Hello? Oh darn, guess this just isn't my day.

-Receptionist to GU AD later on: So a Doug Elgin called about joining the Missouri Valley Conference. I guess its the conference with Creighton and Bradley? Didn't I just dial up Creighton for you earlier today?
-GU AD: Yes, we're really hoping Creighton hops ship and joins our new Big Catholic Conference.
-Receptionist: Geez, I feel bad for that guy. He was also talking about some school named Bradley. Weren't they good at basketball in the the 80's and the 50's?
-GU AD: Probably.

Excellent! And probably too true as well.

[Bravesfan]

Chicago Tribune article-

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-depaul-catholic-schools-big-east-20121213,0,3403239.story

DePaul, Marquette, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's and Villanova -- are splitting from the conference. The schools are working on the details of the departure, a plan that "literally changes by the hour," a source told the Tribune.

Multiple reports Thursday said the seven schools will form a new conference and add other members that share a basketball emphasis. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, citing Marquette sources, said Butler and Xavier will leave the Atlantic 10 for the new conference, with Creighton, Dayton, Saint Louis and Virginia Commonwealth other candidates for membership in what would be a 10- or 12-team conference.

The only potential holdup is Georgetown struggling with the idea of leaving the Big East, the paper said.

First time I've seen Virginia Commonwealth mentioned in this discussion. Richmond, Virginia is only a little larger than the Peoria area, so they now seem to be considering non-Catholic schools that do not represent large population areas or media markets.

Also- several highly rated recruits are re-thinking their commitments to Big East schools in view of the conference fragmenting.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...does-it-matter

Now that's really interesting about the recruits re-thinking their commitments to Big East schools. I thought that was the reason the seven schools were seperating in the first place, to keep the quality of the programs going!

This may yet backfire even if they do get their new conference going.