Title IX - has it worked?

[tornado]

If a woman wants to play sports in college then just go to a school that has that sport and succeed!
Instead, repeatedly you point to "all those football scholarships"...what does that have to do with it?....

Why do you base your whole point on being a victim - on the unfairness of life because you aren't getting what someone else is getting?
I find that approach makes you endlessly dissatisfied because there's always someone with more than you.
Just go out and compete and make your own legacy....

Here's the kind of story I admire....Janet Evans -- a great swimmer who grew up in the 70's and 80's, then she went to schools that DID sponsor swimming teams (Stanford, USC -since the 1970's), and she excelled...
She didn't whine and demand that someone else start up a swimming program...

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/06/19/evans-at-age-40-puts-olympic-hopes-into-800-free/

then she went out and dominated - and now she's trying to make a comeback at 40 and doesn'
t appear to be asking the government to help her...

[tornado]

.....I just don't get it -- if a woman wants to play sports in college then just GO TO a SCHOOL that has that sport and succeed!!!!
Instead, repeatedly you point to "all those football scholarships" like a greedy kid staring at lollipops thru a store window....

Why do you base your whole point on being a victim - on the unfairness of life because you aren't getting what someone else is getting??
I find that approach makes you endlessly dissatisfied because there's always someone with more than you.
Jus go out and compete and make your own legacy....

Here's the kind of story I admire....Janet Evans -- a great swimmer who grew up in the 70's and 80's, then she went to schools that DID sponsor swimming teams (Stanford, USC -since the 1970's and they were pogressive schools that would have had women's swimming regardless of Title IX), and she excelled...
And even if there were no colleges that had swimming she'd have trained on her own like a lot of Olympians do and like Evans is doing RIGHT NOW for her comeback...
She didn't whine and demand that someone else start up a swimming program...
then she went out and dominated - and now she's trying to make a comeback at 40 and doesn't appear to be asking the government to help her...

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/06/19/evans-at-age-40-puts-olympic-hopes-into-800-free/

[JC]

My question- is there ever going to be a point at which women's sports should be expected to generate their fair share of revenues as men's sports do? Or must we accept that women's sports will always be a financial drain on college budgets, or live off the revenue generated by men's sports?

[bradleyfan20]

If a woman wants to play sports in college then just go to a school that has that sport and succeed!
Instead, repeatedly you point to "all those football scholarships"...what does that have to do with it?....

Why do you base your whole point on being a victim - on the unfairness of life because you aren't getting what someone else is getting?

Why do I point to football scholarships getting 80, because it is excessive. Why not have 80 tracks scholarships for women? Why do you keep pointing to these "victims" of men being deprived by women getting an opportunity to compete. If men want to swim, whey don't they go to Stanford where they have men's swimming.

See, if you put a wo in front of your argument for men, it could be argued the other way. THIS IS THE ENTIRE POINT - EQUALITY!!! EQUAL, not more, EQUAL - Nothing could seem more fair than equal based on proportionality...but I guess you don't see it...so no point in arguing...

[bradleyfan20]

.....I just don't get it --

This, I believe is true....

[bradleyfan20]

My question- is there ever going to be a point at which women's sports should be expected to generate their fair share of revenues as men's sports do? Or must we accept that women's sports will always be a financial drain on college budgets, or live off the revenue generated by men's sports?

Not everything good makes money. High school sports lose money. Should they be expected to generate revenue or disband? MANY college football teams lose money. MOST men's sports lose money.

[Braves4Life]

This, I believe is true....

Glad you two could finally agree on something.

[bradleyfan20]

Glad you two could finally agree on something.

I'm not trying to be too disagreeable. But.....

[Da Coach]

The reason there will never be agreement is that some see Title IX as some kind of vast government instituted affirmative action program that the government must legislate to maintain what some see as fairness. Others see college athletics as a market driven and demand driven area of the college experience.

Many universities award more scholarships in math, chemistry, and physics to males, though it is not because of discrimination, but merit. Do you think they should be mandated to award equal amounts to both sexes, even if there are more deserving men? Why should it be any different for athletics?

[bradleyfan20]

The reason there will never be agreement is that some see Title IX as some kind of vast government instituted affirmative action program that the government must legislate to maintain what some see as fairness. Others see college athletics as a market driven and demand driven area of the college experience.

Many universities award more scholarships in math, chemistry, and physics to males, though it is not because of discrimination, but merit. Do you think they should be mandated to award equal amounts to both sexes, even if there are more deserving men? Why should it be any different for athletics?

College athletics clearly isn't market driven. If it were, only football and basketball would be offered at most schools. Know of a lot of wrestling programs making money? Or soccer? Or track? Or baseball? So, since that is clearly not the case, there should be fairness in opportunity.

The reason it should be different in athletics is because it is separate. If we had men's only math departments, then I would say we should provide opportunity for women in math. You present a false analogy....

Lets go the other way...if women had 95% of the scholarships for college athletics, I think that would seem unfair. Men would then need more opportunity. If we went 70 years and men were still not getting those opportunities, so we passed rules saying that they MUST get opportunities, that would be a good idea. Then, if 40 years after that the playing field was much closer, say 55/45, wouldn't we say...looks like it is working? Or would you say, men are causing women to lose scholarships?

What's fair is fair. And the irony of me arguing all of this... I don't watch a single women's sport. I could not be less interested in them. But, I do think what is fair is fair.

[bradleyfan20]

Do you think they should be mandated to award equal amounts to both sexes, even if there are more deserving men? Why should it be any different for athletics?

Is a great female bowler any less deserving of a scholarship than a great male tennis player? Both produce no revenue. So, I would say, if we have 150 men getting an opportunity, instead of providing more opportunities for a guy to play tennis, lets let a female get a chance in her sport of dominance.

[Da Coach]

Is a great female bowler any less deserving of a scholarship than a great male tennis player? Both produce no revenue. So, I would say, if we have 150 men getting an opportunity, instead of providing more opportunities for a guy to play tennis, lets let a female get a chance in her sport of dominance.

This is where we'll never agree- I would say there are better ways to decide this question than for someone in a position of authority, and under the threat of a federal lawsuit to make this decision, not on the merit of the athlete, but the way a bean counter makes his decisions- to simply comply with federal mandated quotas.

Why are some people so afraid to leave these decisions up to the universities? Aren't they the most liberal bastions of our society?

And to counter your question- Why should a male high school track star who can run a 1600 meters in under 4 minutes 10 seconds not be able to get a scholarship because colleges have all cut their men's track and field teams, while a female high schooler who has never broken the 5 minute mark can get multiple offers because those colleges need to use those scholarships regardless of whether the athlete deserves it?

By the way, just as with soccer, the NCAA allows each D1 school to give 18 scholarships for women's cross country/track and field, but only 12.6 scholarships to men's cross country/track and field. Is that fair? Does it take more women to field a team?

[tornado]

Not everything good makes money. High school sports lose money. Should they be expected to generate revenue or disband? MANY college football teams lose money. MOST men's sports lose money.

but you act like the money just grows on trees....no, it has to come from somewhere - thus if someone is PAYING for it then is it not fair to let those who shell out the $$ have some voice in this?
Instead you just want to legislate and force those who are paying to support something that in many cases they do NOT want and do not approve their $$ being used to float...

I have raised both boys & girls as well as white children and Black children and have endlessly tried to instill a good work ethic that will drive them to work hard ON THEIR OWN and not ask for nor expect anyone else to come along and help them or carry them when they couldn't have made it on their own. It's a life plan that works since you're NOT dependent on someone else to carry you...
I am fully aware that some - maybe MANY - have a different perspective of wanting to grab everything they can or raise their kids to do so, or use anyone else or anything else as a stepping stone to get higher....but I personally choose not to live that way and not to train my kids to always look for or expect a handout especially not an unfair gift from the government...
too bad more parents don't train their kids to be independent and self-sufficient because we might not have $15 trillion in debt caused largely by government handouts ...

[bradleyfan20]

This is where we'll never agree- I would say there are better ways to decide this question than for someone in a position of authority, and under the threat of a federal lawsuit to make this decision, not on the merit of the athlete, but the way a bean counter makes his decisions- to simply comply with federal mandated quotas.

Why are some people so afraid to leave these decisions up to the universities? Aren't they the most liberal bastions of our society?

And to counter your question- Why should a male high school track star who can run a 1600 meters in under 4 minutes 10 seconds not be able to get a scholarship because colleges have all cut their men's track and field teams, while a female high schooler who has never broken the 5 minute mark can get multiple offers because those colleges need to use those scholarships regardless of whether the athlete deserves it?

By the way, just as with soccer, the NCAA allows each D1 school to give 18 scholarships for women's cross country/track and field, but only 12.6 scholarships to men's cross country/track and field. Is that fair? Does it take more women to field a team?

And, this is the point that you don't want to listen to. It is simple math. If you are designing a blind system, where you don't know the athletes involved, and it is decided (which it was in 1972) that equality is a good thing, the simple answer to your question is FOOTBALL. I don't know why that is so difficult to comprehend. 80 football scholarships, plus all of the other men's sports scholarships = women's scholarships. So, some women's sports need more scholarships to provide opportunity for the student population because football is eating at the number of men's scholarships. That really does seem simple. If you want equality in track and field from men to women in terms of number of scholarships, then as I said before, why not cut football from 80 to 60 scholarships.

You dismissed this idea earlier, but that is the answer to your question. You may disagree with it, which is fine. But, that is the answer to why 12.6 and 9.9 for the men. What is truly great about this country is this: Fight to change the law if you feel it is wrong or unconstitutional.

Again, I actually never watch women play sports. I think it is boring outside of a couple of high level volleyball games. That is me. But, I do think the opportunity must exist.

[Braves4Life]

too bad more parents don't train their kids to be independent and self-sufficient because we might not have $15 trillion in debt caused largely by government handouts ...

+1