BU 48 ISU 78 - Final

[Toyota12]

rivalry

Let's not forget before saturday nights complete embarassment we had lost 5 in a row to ISU!! Remember this downward spiral started way before this year....Recruits,Recruits,Recruits, we need people with high bball iq's and guts and toughness...

[cpacmel]

Illinois State is the 7th ranked team in the MVC in RPI, which is a far better measure of how good they are. They are also just a couple slots away from the worst SOS in the league.

Da Coach, I have to respectively disagree on some of your points here.

RPI and SOS have absolutely no relevance to where a team finishes in their conference.

But let's go with this notion that RPI does show the REAL measure of how good a team is:

SIU is 5-8 in the conference with an RPI of 228

Bradley is 1-12 in the conference with an RPI of 230

In the 2 meetings with SIU and BU, SIU won by 9 pts and 17 points.

Yet according to the RPI, these 2 teams are only 2 spots different? I don't think anyone would argue that SIU and BU are nearly the same. Right?

I think all the RPI is showing in these examples is the reward teams get that have played better non-conference schedules. I don't think it alone is a great measure of how good a team is, especially when compared to other teams.

They will not finish 3rd. They may not finish in the top half. They have 3 road games left, out of their 5 remaining MVC games, and one of their home games is Wichita.

We may or may not finish 3rd. Lots of games left. But the team (mo State) we are tied with, we have already SWEPT them this year.

Of the road games we have left (@uni, @ indy state and @ bradley), we already beat all 3 of those teams in Normal.

We get Drake this week, and Simmons looks like he is OUT with Mono too.

And when we played the Shockers in Wichita, we had 5 possessions inside the last few minutes to either tie the game or take the lead over them. We were also down a single point to them with 4 minutes left in the game.

Yes, they are worlds better than Bradley right now, but that doesn't make them "a good team".

I don't know what the parameters are that makes a "good" team vs. a "great team" vs an average team.

Does beating Mo State twice make us a good team?

What about beating UNI, Indy State, or Evansville?

There is a real chance we finish atleast 9-9 in the 8th best conference. While that is not great, I think that might fall into the section of "good" teams.

I don't agree with some of this article, it does talk about the gap between ISU and Bradley right now:

http://www.pantagraph.com/blogs/kindred/kindred-blowout-reveals-isu-s-widening-gap-with-braves/article_48c23886-4fb3-11e1-b338-001871e3ce6c.html

[Da Coach]

Nice dissertation cpacmel , but I am not sure what point you are addressing, because it sure doesn't have anything to do with my points.
I merely was responding to other posters, and said that ISU is "not that good". You are free to take issue, and have a different opinion, but I stand by that opinion. Their RPI is the 7th best RPI in the conference, and remains well over 100+. In fact when post season NCAA at large bids are handed out, nobody cares what position in your conference you finished, they look at the things I mentioned- strength of schedule, and RPI, among other things.

And nice how you worked Bradley into your argument, when it is totally irrelevant here.

[Nacho]

Their RPI is the 7th best RPI in the conference, and remains well over 100+.

Just curious what your definition of "well over 100+" is?

RPI per different sites:

ESPN Insider Daily RPI: 110
Kenpom: 80
Sagarin: 85

Realtimerpi.com is not currently working...

[Nacho]

Forgot sagarin and kenpom are there own formula but my point stands...

[Da Coach]

Just curious what your definition of "well over 100+" is?

RPI per different sites:

ESPN Insider Daily RPI: 110
Kenpom: 80
Sagarin: 85

Realtimerpi.com is not currently working...

When I posted that on Saturday, their RPI was 119- I would consider that to be well over 100. Would you not agree?
Warrennolan.com lists Illinois State's current RPI as 116-

http://warrennolan.com/basketball/2012/schedule/Illinois-State

Also, note that site also shows ISU's RPI last week when I made that statement was 119.

[cpacmel]

Yeah, I can get long winded at times.

I find it interesting how different people think. So DaCoach, in your mind RPI trumps all?

If ISU should some how finish 3rd in the MVC standings by themselves, you don't consider them the 3rd best team in the conference, unless their RPI is 3rd best?

I would think 18 games of playing every one HOME and AWAY would certainly decide that.

I will use another example (this one not including Bradley or SIU) .

ISU's RPI is 116 and Mo State's RPI is 81.
Both teams are tied for 3rd in the conf standings with a record of 7-6.
ISU has swept Mo State.

So who's better?

Not who does the selection committee think is better, just simply who is better?

[Da Coach]

Yeah, I can get long winded at times.

I find it interesting how different people think. So DaCoach, in your mind RPI trumps all?

If ISU should some how finish 3rd in the MVC standings by themselves, you don't consider them the 3rd best team in the conference, unless their RPI is 3rd best?

I would think 18 games of playing every one HOME and AWAY would certainly decide that.

I will use another example (this one not including Bradley or SIU) .

ISU's RPI is 116 and Mo State's RPI is 81.
Both teams are tied for 3rd in the conf standings with a record of 7-6.
ISU has swept Mo State.

So who's better?

Not who does the selection committee think is better, just simply who is better?

Please don't twist what I said- I said "they are not that good", as in "they are not an NCAA At Large team", and "they are not a top 100 team". The MVC is wide open this year after the top 2. Maybe ISU can become more consistent and stay in 3rd. If they manage to finish 3rd, which I don't think will happen, then they will be the 3rd best team in the league. They are still not that good, and will be a longshot for the NIT at best.
Do you think ISU should get interest from the NCAA or NIT? Note that the NIT almost never has given a non-automatic bid to a non-BCS team with an RPI over 100.

And in your case of ISU and MSU- you make a strong case, but I would go more by the whole "body of work" as well as my own "eye test". I think MSU is a better team. If they finish 3rd, they have a real good shot at an NIT bid.

[TheGuy]

If they manage to finish 3rd, which I don't think will happen, then they will be the 3rd best team in the league. They are still not that good, and will be a longshot for the NIT at best.
Do you think ISU should get interest from the NCAA or NIT? Note that the NIT almost never has given a non-automatic bid to a non-BCS team with an RPI over 100.

I would imagine that if we were to finish 3rd in the conference our RPI would be under 100 so I wouldn't worry about that part.

[TheAsianSensation]

I would imagine that if we were to finish 3rd in the conference our RPI would be under 100 so I wouldn't worry about that part.

That's honestly going to be a dicey proposition. I'm not sure they break 100 even with 11-7 in league play.

[TheGuy]

That's honestly going to be a dicey proposition. I'm not sure they break 100 even with 11-7 in league play.

At 11-7 that means ISU would win 4 more games in valley play. They currently sit at 110 according to insider RPI.

Drake (100)
Northern Iowa (62)
Indiana St. (111)
Wichita St. (29)
Bradley (209)

Worst case scenario with 4 wins for RPI would be wins over Drake, UNI, Indiana St. and Bradley. If those don't get them under 100 I would be shocked.

[cpacmel]

Please don't twist what I said- I said "they are not that good", as in "they are not an NCAA At Large team", and "they are not a top 100 team".

The thing is, I am not trying to twist anything. I am simply trying to find out how people define good teams vs. great teams vs. average teams. Obviously each person's rationale is going to be different.

I for instance think a team that gets an At-large bid to be closer to being Great than good. Same thing with top 100 teams.

Not saying your rationale is wrong at all. ISU with their 120 rpi and 7-6 in MVC in your opinion is in the not so good. We can agree to disagree on it. I personally think they are good, but in no means great. Probably better to just call them above average.

The MVC is wide open this year after the top 2. Maybe ISU can become more consistent and stay in 3rd. If they manage to finish 3rd, which I don't think will happen, then they will be the 3rd best team in the league.

Sounds good. Couldn't agree with you more.

They are still not that good, and will be a longshot for the NIT at best.
Do you think ISU should get interest from the NCAA or NIT? Note that the NIT almost never has given a non-automatic bid to a non-BCS team with an RPI over 100.

Can't argue with any of that. Most places that project this stuff always seem to list ISU on the bubble and mostly on the bubble out.

http://nitology.com/

And in your case of ISU and MSU- you make a strong case, but I would go more by the whole "body of work" as well as my own "eye test". I think MSU is a better team. If they finish 3rd, they have a real good shot at an NIT bid.

Whole body of work is tough because the difference in scheduling of course.

I am curious by your "eye test" though. The fact that head to head ISU beat Mo State twice already, doesn't sway you?

I think sometimes we get caught up way too much in the #'s (RPI, sagarin, etc). I know I am gulity of it.

Thank you for the civil debate.

[tornado]

Let's face it - facts are facts...
two teams in the Valley are having fine years -- everyone else is around .500 and below...and does NOT deserve an at large bid

[NSBF]

ILS won this last game.
They are currently in 3rd place and hold the tiebreaker over MSU.
Their Valley record is what has them in third place, not their RPI, SOS, Sagarin, WarrenNolan, Eye test, conference ranking or any other warped criteria pulled out of thin air to discredit them.
They just won by 30 and no amount of bad mouthing is going to change that. What's next, is someone going to say it was closer than the final score indicated?
If TB didn't need stitches BU would have made a run? nope, he was still 1-9 from the field.

The rest is what it is. ISU is better than BU right now, and no amount of Kool-Aid changes that fact. If so, then no one should ever call their fans unknowledgeable about basketball.

Period.

[Da Coach]

OK, you have convinced me that ISU is better than Bradley right now. Congratulations. But in case you didn't notice, we are not talking about Bradley, we were talking about ISU.

They are still not a good team. I don't see ISU getting an NIT bid ahead of Northern Iowa (RPI 51 with a win over Creighton and 3 wins over Top 50 teams) or even Missouri State (RPI 81 with a road win over Creighton). Do you?

Here are some other things I just pulled out of thin air ()-

Illinois State's RPI is still 116- that is mediocre- bash the RPI all you want, but when the season ends and the NCAA and NIT committees get together, they will look at RPI, they will look at SOS, they will look at who you beat. They will not look at what position you finished in your conference.

ISU's SOS is 133- that is the worst SOS in the entire MVC. Their non conference SOS is atrocious.

ISU's record against Top 50 RPI teams- 0-4 and they have 4 losses against teams with RPI > 150 .