SIU 74 Bradley 65 post game thread

[tornado]

BTW -- I suspect Cuonzo Martin is feeling some of the same things as Geno...
and the UT fans seem to be having some of the same concerns...

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/34200906?source=rss_teams_Tennessee_Volunteers

[lefty]

So who is right -- is the playing time making him better or making him worse due to fatigue?....I'm right and Ben is wrong

My thing with JP is that he is not a dominant big....I believe he can be an effective big..just not dominant so IMO he will be more effective playing 25 minutes a game...I know it's only 5 minutes but those last 8-10 in the second half are huge IMO


As for validity of the "fatigue" argument -- Jordan is getting plenty of "blows" and plays 29.9 mpg (only 4th most on our team) and 28.7 mpg in MVC play - every single Valley team has players playing as much and more every game!!..


and as for this silly talent argument --

-first - nobody said we lacked talent when they looked for reason to blame JL for losing - they said just the opposite...
that he was losing despite all-league talent...and several of those players are still here..I Agree..I've been saying that as well

-TB & DSE got pre-season all-conference mentions...they would start on virtually every Valley team and as can easily be seen from the Sammy example - our starters can even start in the Big Ten

-a couple of the key players that are catching some heat currently were also strongly recruited by our own conference rivals...
even Geno once said he watched and recruited JP back at Kent State and wanted him back then...


The answer is that it is a year of change & rebuilding -- it is virtually natural and expected to see players struggle when asked to play a completely new system, for new coaches, and in new positions.

IT IS NOT THE PLAYERS' FAULT, AND IT IS NOT THE COACHES' FAULT...
I have never once said it _____ _____'s fault -- but it IS a simple result (or fallout) of the changes that were made and factors that brought us to this point.....I agree here to and i don't think have said anything differently


As for recruits - nobody - in fact not even the next 10 guys in order - who post on this board spend as much time tracking, talking about, posting on, lauding the accomplishments of, bragging on the performances of, and hyping up the play of future Bradley recruits as I do .. so get back to me when you do as much positive for the incoming recruits - and even the past and ex-Braves as I do...

I'm not trying to compete with here either

[real fan]

No way am I going to "hate" on JP for those passes, but there were a LOT of layups/dunks last night and it wasn't the first time. Where was our center at those times?

J.P. is only a sophomore and he is not defending the post at all but he is not someone I would look at as far as recruiting over , Geno has played a walk on a lot more minutes then several of the players sitting on the bench which to me says a lot in itself.

[tornado]

.. played a walk on a lot more minutes then several of the players sitting on the bench which to me says a lot in itself.

this can present a problem -- it can send a message to the players that they are way down in the playing rotation if the walk-on play ahead of you and it may make some potential recruit out there think twice if he's going to a place where the walk-ons play bigger minutes than the scholarship players...
I actually had a D-I head coach say to me that other coaches use walk-on playing time as a negative recruiting tool - telling potential recruits "do you know they play their walk-ons ahead of their recruited scholarship players?"...thus he would only use walk-ons very cautiously for fear it could actually hurt recruiting

[Beninator]

I'm not trying to compete with here either

I think that we are both correct.

My response had more to do with JD's comments about people from the stands screaming to get JP out of the game. I would like to see JP get as much time as possible and learn from his mistakes in order for him to be better next year.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your comments were more towards JP's mistakes being a result of fatigue.
Which I also think is very accurate.

[Nacho]

this can present a problem -- it can send a message to the players that they are way down in the playing rotation if the walk-on play ahead of you and it may make some potential recruit out there think twice if he's going to a place where the walk-ons play bigger minutes than the scholarship players...
I actually had a D-I head coach say to me that other coaches use walk-on playing time as a negative recruiting tool - telling potential recruits "do you know they play their walk-ons ahead of their recruited scholarship players?"...thus he would only use walk-ons very cautiously for fear it could actually hurt recruiting

If I were a recruit, I think I would view it as an opportunity for early playing time (which many recruits say they look for). If the scholarship players are not able to beat out a walk-on, as a recruit, I would think "Hey- I should be able to beat them out too! Or at least I will have a chance to beat them out if I play by butt off!"

Not arguing with you because I don't disagree with your statement that it could hurt recruiting- just looking at it from the opposite side.

[lefty]

I think that we are both correct.

My response had more to do with JD's comments about people from the stands screaming to get JP out of the game. I would like to see JP get as much time as possible and learn from his mistakes in order for him to be better next year.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think your comments were more towards JP's mistakes being a result of fatigue.
Which I also think is very accurate.

Yup...that's what I meant....lots of pressure on JP......he's the go to big and he's not going to be a dominant big( not a slam)...and perimeter shooting is average at best.....so doubling down is a no brainer...and he's usually being guarded by someone already bigger anyway

[BradleyJD]

We have no depth and building for the future, yet there are two freshman sitting on the bench that have played a combined 49 minutes all season! Forgive me if that equation leaves me a bit confused.

To be fair, having players does not equal quality depth.

I remember Albeck stacking big, tall, talentless post guys. Having them on the roster didn't help with depth because they couldn't play

[LittleBrave]

For me, that was probably last year. This one could get that bad, but there's a lot of basketball left to be played. Also, I have no reason to believe we'd be any better this year had Coach Les been retained. At least now I can think to myself that we have made a new start and it might get better.

Yes, last year was as frustrating as it gets.
I understand the lack of depth will be a problem this year.

At least we show signs of scoring. All we had last year was Mr. Warren.
Let's not focus on the W-L column guys.

Yeah, we should beat SIU, but give them some credit. They've been playing very well since at full strength. I thought they'd be the surprise team this year. The MVC season for them has been a different story so far.

I thought our offense looked decent tonight, but I look at the final and wonder how we only got 65, as it seemed like we scored more in the 2nd half.

I enjoy watching TB, DSE, WL, JP (though he's struggled except the first few games). But beyond that, we don't have much, though there's a bright future for 2-YOK & JC I believe.

[tornado]

Huh?
List all the GF recruits that we have on the roster. Not ones that Jim recruited.

not sure what you're driving at - but who in their right mind - even Geno included - wouldn't have fully expected he'd have to play this season with players he had not recruited...(although it could be said that five of the 13 players who are rostered are his new incoming guys)

...but let's look at a few other current & recent Valley head coaches in their first years at the helm in the Valley - none have ever done any worse than we're doing now......
So believe if you want that this is the norm for new coaches in the Valley but it is NOT - it is at the extreme...

Geno - currently 5-10
Jim Les - 12-18, and 5-10 in his first 15 games but then he won the next 2
Dana Altman - 7-19, and 6-9 in his first 15 games
Greg McDermott - 23-16, and 10-5 in his first 15 games
Drake's Mark Phelps - 17-16, and 11-4 in his first 15 games
Drake's Keno Davis - 28-5, and 14-1 in his first 15 games
Steve Merfeld - 12-16, and 6-9 in his first 15 games (but won the next two)
Marty Simmons - 9-21, and 5-10 in his first 15 games
Porter Moser - 10-19, and 5-10 in his first 15 games
Tim Jankovich - 25-10, and 12-3 in his first 15 games
Kevin McKenna - 15-16, and 9-6 in his first 15 games
Greg Lansing - 20-14, and 8-7 in his first 15 games
Cuonzo Martin - 11-20, and 7-8 in his first 15 games
Paul Lusk - 9-6 so far, and 9-6 in his first 15 games
Greg McDermott - 14-15, and 9-6 in his first 15 games
Ben Jacobson - 18-13, and 13-2 in his first 15 games
Matt Painter - 25-5, and 13-2 in his first 15 games
Chris Lowery - 27-8, and 12-3 in his first 15 games
Mark Turgeon - 9-19, and 7-8 in his first 15 games
Gregg Marshall - 11-20, and 8-7 in his first 15 games



and...considering Geno has only been head coach for eight months - he actually IS responsible for a substantial proportion on the eligible scholarship players.

[TheAsianSensation]

I'd urge you to consider SoSs for those other coaches' records. I'm willing to bet a significant portion of them played weaker skeds than Geno.

One could also argue Geno had the barest cupboard of all those coaches, but I'll leave that one up to others.

[tornado]

..
One could also argue Geno had the barest cupboard of all those coaches, but I'll leave that one up to others.

(snicker)...sure I suppose one could say that - except for the facts...
but everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just see the facts as saying this...

remember - many people thought enough of DSE & TB to list them as preseason all-conference players...
plus four of the players who were sure to be returning were starters (TB, DSE, JP, WL)..and even Jake had plenty of experience and had started some games...

[LittleBrave]

(snicker)...sure I suppose one could say that - except for the facts...
but everyone is entitled to their opinion, I just see the facts as saying this...

remember - many people thought enough of DSE & TB to list them as preseason all-conference players...
plus four of the players who were sure to be returning were starters (TB, DSE, JP, WL)..and even Jake had plenty of experience and had started some games...

4 pretty talented guys plus not much help from the others does not equate to a winning record.
And I'm not convinced how talented JP is yet - he is very inconsistent, but he's only a sophomore.
I will say that Walt Lemon has showed me a lot this year and was a good pick-up by Coach Les, as were quite a few others on this year's roster. But unfortunately, a few others did not pan out, which doesn't help our team.

[BradleyJD]

Geno has always taken responsibility for this team and how it plays. I don't think we have to doubt that.

His players or not, the W's and L's go on his record. I'm sure he can handle the heat from fans. Every coach has to be able to do that.

[Bravesfan]

not sure what you're driving at - but who in their right mind - even Geno included - wouldn't have fully expected he'd have to play this season with players he had not recruited...(although it could be said that five of the 13 players who are rostered are his new incoming guys)

...but let's look at a few other current & recent Valley head coaches in their first years at the helm in the Valley - none have ever done any worse than we're doing now......
So believe if you want that this is the norm for new coaches in the Valley but it is NOT - it is at the extreme...

Geno - currently 5-10
Jim Les - 12-18, and 5-10 in his first 15 games but then he won the next 2
Dana Altman - 7-19, and 6-9 in his first 15 games
Greg McDermott - 23-16, and 10-5 in his first 15 games
Drake's Mark Phelps - 17-16, and 11-4 in his first 15 games
Drake's Keno Davis - 28-5, and 14-1 in his first 15 games
Steve Merfeld - 12-16, and 6-9 in his first 15 games (but won the next two)
Marty Simmons - 9-21, and 5-10 in his first 15 games
Porter Moser - 10-19, and 5-10 in his first 15 games
Tim Jankovich - 25-10, and 12-3 in his first 15 games
Kevin McKenna - 15-16, and 9-6 in his first 15 games
Greg Lansing - 20-14, and 8-7 in his first 15 games
Cuonzo Martin - 11-20, and 7-8 in his first 15 games
Paul Lusk - 9-6 so far, and 9-6 in his first 15 games
Greg McDermott - 14-15, and 9-6 in his first 15 games
Ben Jacobson - 18-13, and 13-2 in his first 15 games
Matt Painter - 25-5, and 13-2 in his first 15 games
Chris Lowery - 27-8, and 12-3 in his first 15 games
Mark Turgeon - 9-19, and 7-8 in his first 15 games
Gregg Marshall - 11-20, and 8-7 in his first 15 games



and...considering Geno has only been head coach for eight months - he actually IS responsible for a substantial proportion on the eligible scholarship players.

Well, it is the extreme, but not unprecedented. It looks like Dana Altman and Mark Turgeon (who both went on to very successful runs in the Valley) had a very similar type of first season as Geno is having. Dana started 6-9, but Creighton only won one more game the entire season to go 7-19. And while Mark Turgeon started slightly better at 7-8, he only went 2-11 the rest of the way.

My point is we may only get 1 or 2 more wins if we're lucky, and finish something like 7-25 or 8-24. Granted this would be the worst winning percentage for a first year Valley coach since Coach Mo (who also went on to a successful run with Bradley), but not really that much worse than Dana or Mark had to endure their first seasons. And we all know what happened afterwards, though it took Dana until his 3rd season to be competitive, and his 4th to go to the NIT.