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I am definitely not a fan of "change for change sake". I can't believe that you are really saying that you are.
It is only logical, and intelligent to look at every possible issue and circumstance before making a major move like a coaching change.
As I have asked elsewhere, where are all the examples of a coach in the MVC or similar situation being fiired and replaced, and making a major difference? Name one that made it to the NCAA inside of 4 or 5 years?
Sure.
I suppose we can nitpick these but I spent about 30 minutes looking at last year's 2010 NCAA Tournament field. Then looked at the mid-majors who made the tournament and recent coaching history.
I came up with at leave five schools who had fired a coach in their recent history and the new coach made an NCAA Tourney in his first four years at least.
Cleveland State, Gary Waters
Ohio U., John Groce
New Mexico State, Reggie Thues (isn't there now)
Old Dominion, Blaine Taylor
San Diego State, Steve Fisher
Not gonna spend all day on it. As mentioned, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I suppose we can nitpick these but I spent about 30 minutes looking at last year's 2010 NCAA Tournament field. Then looked at the mid-majors who made the tournament and recent coaching history.
I came up with at leave five schools who had fired a coach in their recent history and the new coach made an NCAA Tourney in his first four years at least.
Cleveland State, Gary Waters
Ohio U., John Groce
New Mexico State, Reggie Thues (isn't there now)
Old Dominion, Blaine Taylor
San Diego State, Steve Fisher
Not gonna spend all day on it. As mentioned, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
OK, I acknowledged there are examples, but very few.
But I am not going to accept these examples, since none of them replaced a coach that was fired.
So are you saying you are OK with waiting until Jim Les resigns?
Also, it is hard to make a case that any of them have had as much success as Jim Les has had (minus this currect season's aberrancy).
Gary Waters may be the foremost such example of a good outcome after a previous coach was fired. He has done well at Cleveland State, and he made the NCAA tournament one time in his 5 seasons there. He did not make it to the Sweet 16, but I'll give you Waters as an example of a coaching change that turned out well so far. BTW, Waters was a failure at Rutgers before coming to CSU, but I give credit to the people at CSU for their choice. However, Waters was hired as a replacement after Mike Garland resigned in 2006. Garland is, btw, just one of many, many examples of coahces that failed to live up to the expectations the school and fans had.
John Groce is also not an example I accept. He replaced Tim O'Shea, who resigned and left voluntarily to take another head coaching job for personal reasons. He was not fired, and did not leave because the program was losing. In fact, he walked away after a winning season, was a bubble team that missed the NCAA, and made a postseason appearance in the CBI.
Probably Groce would not have even considered Bradley, just like another Big Ten top assistant Brian Gregory, would not consider Bradley back in 2002.
He did make the NCAA in his 2nd year at Ohio, at least in part because he inherited a pretty good, winning team from Tim O'Shea. But they have struggled since then, and are only 15-13 this year and 5th in the Eastern Division of the MAC.
Reggie Theus ?- wow, now you are really stretching, and proving my point. Usually Theus is brought up as one of the few examples of a former college star being hired as a coach without head coaching experience. He did manage to stay at New Mexico State for 2 short seasons, and made the NCAA his 2nd season, but never won a game in the postseason. He was hired after Lou Henson retired, so again, he does fit the same criteria we are talking about as replacing a coach fired for losing. And he took some shortcuts at NMSU, bringing in some kids with serious character issues to try for a quick turnaround. That would not be accepted by Bradley fans.
Blaine Taylor- Blaine Taylor became coach at ODU in 2001 replacing Jeff Capel II. Capel was not fired, but resigned and took an NBA job, so this case is also not quite the same as what we are talking about, though I concede he had not been winning the last couple years he was there.
Taylor took over and did not make the NCAA tournament until his 4th year, and he had 3 losing seasons before he achieved that. He has done well, but never made it to the Sweet 16.
And Steve Fisher- again, wow, you have to go all the way back to 1999 to dig up this case? And even this case is not the same criteria as my challenge. Fisher was hired in 1999 to replace the previous coach, Fred Trenkle who resigned. He was not fired. Steve Fisher had been run out at Michigan after the "Ed Martin" recruiting scandal surfaced in 1998. He resurfaced at SDSU, and made it to one NCAA tournament in his first 6 seasons. This is now his 12th season in the Mountain West Conference, and he has only won the MWC once in that 12 year span, though he will win it again this year. And he has never won an NCAA game.
I wonder what some Bradley fans might say if we hired a known cheater like Fisher to replace Jim Les?? Hmmm.
See how hard this challenge is. There are a couple more examples out there, but the number of failed examples far outnumber those that proved successful.
Guys who "resign" are often times fired. "Resign" is a cleaner, nicer, word. Come on. O'Shea was going to get fired at Ohio U and went to Bryant.
Mike Garland "resigned" to keep from being fired. I know this for an absolute fact. If I told you I heard it from Mike Garland directly would that count?
I figured there would be a post arguing semantics of each case. Like clockwork. Can't we just move on and agree that sometimes a coaching change works and sometimes it doesn't?
To say the failed ones "outnumber" the successful ones is based on nothing but emotion and opinion. No fact to back that up. Let's move on. This gets tiring.
You bring up some really good points and your right on. It is extremely difficult to fire a coach and then have the new coach come on in and bring them to a successful level in a short time span. Here is why.
Usually if your firing a coach at the "mid-major" level...its because they are underachieving. Any program that has a good coach at the "mid-major" level will do everything in its power to keep them aboard.
When you fire that coach, the new coach has to come in and either develop the talent currently on the roster and bring in better talent. At the "mid-major" level that is going to take usually a minimum of 3-4 years because unlike the "high-majors" you don't get the cream of the crop talent that could become impactful starters right away more often than not.
So more often than not your not going to find too many coaches that fit in these circumstances. Usually when any coach gets fired at really any level its tough to rebuild it within 2-3 years and sustain a consistent winner.
When you fire that coach, the new coach has to come in and either develop the talent currently on the roster and bring in better talent. At the "mid-major" level that is going to take usually a minimum of 3-4 years because unlike the "high-majors" you don't get the cream of the crop talent that could become impactful starters right away more often than not.
So more often than not your not going to find too many coaches that fit in these circumstances. Usually when any coach gets fired at really any level its tough to rebuild it within 2-3 years and sustain a consistent winner.
I disagree. There are too many factors to state as such definitively. Some guys have a certain gravitas and can win right away with heady upperclassmen.
In terms of rebuilding...there are too many degrees of rebuilding and too many different kinds of coaches. A guy with experience may walk in and win right away, or clean house to set it up the way he wants it.
A program on probation may take an extra year or two.
A program not on probation with moderate success should never take less than 3 years to get headed in the right direction.
Another program that hasn't won in a long time (like DePaul or WIU) it might be a process at least 4-5 years.
I disagree. There are too many factors to state as such definitively. Some guys have a certain gravitas and can win right away with heady upperclassmen.
In terms of rebuilding...there are too many degrees of rebuilding and too many different kinds of coaches. A guy with experience may walk in and win right away, or clean house to set it up the way he wants it.
A program on probation may take an extra year or two.
A program not on probation with moderate success should never take less than 3 years to get headed in the right direction.
Another program that hasn't won in a long time (like DePaul or WIU) it might be a process at least 4-5 years.
IF a change was made this offseason, it would be a lot more attractive than 2002, and I think it was a pretty attractive spot then.
IF there was no major defections and SM, TB, DSE, JP, and WL/WE were around next year, that would be a team that would avoid the "bottoming out" that many first year coaches have.
Obviously the coach would have to be able to work with those players, but it could also completely blow up. TB could be not cleared, SM could use a 5th year transfer (has anyone confirmed he could?), WL, DSE and JP could transfer (I think the most unlikely scenario of any).
I really don't get why anyone is so firm in the belief that Carver Arena will implode or that ESPN will setup shop in Carver from a coaching change.
Given the resources available now (many of them thanks to JL), I'd say any coach worth a **** has a pretty good shot at succeeding at Bradley.
How about McDermott at UNI? He was dancing in years 3, 4 and 5.
so, how many NCAA games did Mac win??? Plus -- it was a decade ago -- so it doesn't even come close to fitting what I say is exceedingly rare........you quoted my post and yet you left out the fact that I asked how many were successful enough to not just get there (they didn't win the conference regular season) and then actually won an NCAA game...
In fact, Greg McDermott has never won a single Division I post-season game in any tournament whatsoever....
..and BOTH Jacobson & Lowery took over winning programs -- their predecessors were NOT fired...
amazing how everyone keeps coming up with supposed proofs that aren't proofs at all -- they serve to actually strengthen my argument!
Likewise -- Waltman -- gotta go back 14 years to when the Valley was no better than 15th toughest conference..
lastly -- even if you can dig back to the 90's and find 2, 3 or 4 such examples, remember, there are 40, 50 or more coaches fired and replaced almost every single season...
that means in that past decade to decade and a half, we have 500 to 700 situations and only 4 or 5 turned out to be a success? that's maybe 1 or 2% -- and some in the BU fans base are banking on that?
lastly -- even if you can dig back to the 90's and find 2, 3 or 4 such examples, remember, there are 40, 50 or more coaches fired and replaced almost every single season...
that means in that past decade to decade and a half, we have 500 to 700 situations and only 4 or 5 turned out to be a success? that's maybe 1 or 2% -- and some in the BU fans base are banking on that?
No tornado. That's not true. I think we all agree that some work, some don't. There is no statistical evidence one way or the other. I only spent 30 minutes looking at last year's NCAA Tournament field. It's not like there has been any real research done on this.
Let's not go as far as saying a few anecdotal examples on a message board come anywhere close to telling the story. I don't think anyone here has the time to do the research. It's goofy to do such a thing.
OK, but then with the preponderance of examples showing that coaching changes are not a guarantee of success, let's stop chiding fans who are not so quick to jump onto the "fire the coach" bandwagon, as we have seen done.
One of many examples-
OK, but then with the preponderance of examples showing that coaching changes are not a guarantee of success, let's stop chiding fans who are not so quick to jump onto the "fire the coach" bandwagon, as we have seen done.
One of many examples- http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17876
Da Coach...Im not chiding you. I've said time and time and time again. I respect your opinion. That's fine.
As long as you respect mine. Why does the "respect" card go one way? I see why you don't think he should be fired. Can't you at least see why some MIGHT think it's time for a change? It's ok to disagree here and see where the other person is coming from.
By the way, it's not a "bandwagon". Smart Bradley fans can make up their own minds and aren't sheep.
To be fair, I'm among the crowd that believes that Les isn't the answer at Bradley, but I seem to have no problem presenting that opinion and backing it up without encountering hostilities from the other side.
I just think both sides want concessions that their reasonable points for their thinking aren't falling on deaf ears.
Da Coach...Im not chiding you. I've said time and time and time again. I respect your opinion. That's fine.
As long as you respect mine. Why does the "respect" card go one way? I see why you don't think he should be fired. Can't you at least see why some MIGHT think it's time for a change? It's ok to disagree here and see where the other person is coming from.
By the way, it's not a "bandwagon". Smart Bradley fans can make up their own minds and aren't sheep.
It certainly looks like a bandwagon. Just go back through the threads on the board. After a win, the "fire the coach" threads are totally absent for a while. After every single loss, they return like an explosion. My stance has never changed, has not waxed and waned.
And why are you acting like you are being persecuted for wanting Jim Les fired? Where have I or anyone said you do not have a right to that opinion. I can show numerous threads where I have been called out or attacked for not agreeing with the "fire the coach" logic (and I did- see above), and I can even show ridiculous attacks by some "fire the coach" people who actually are angry and want to blame me and other supporting fans. You and others are entitled to your opinions, and you are entitled to stay away from games if you do not like what you see.
You are not entitled to tell me what to believe, or make demands of Bradley University.
You and others are entitled to your opinions, and you are entitled to stay away from games if you do not like what you see.
You are not entitled to tell me what to believe, or make demands of Bradley University.
Ahh, the old, if you don't like everything about America move to Canada line
I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm not making demands of Bradley University. When have I ever done that? Come on man. Let's not be so dramatic.
Da Coach...Im not chiding you. I've said time and time and time again. I respect your opinion. That's fine.
As long as you respect mine. Why does the "respect" card go one way? I see why you don't think he should be fired. Can't you at least see why some MIGHT think it's time for a change? It's ok to disagree here and see where the other person is coming from.
By the way, it's not a "bandwagon". Smart Bradley fans can make up their own minds and aren't sheep.
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