ESPN ranking of the teams in Illinois

[Bravesfan]

Bravesfan you do know that Coach Jankovich has won 65% of his MVC games in the 3 years he has been at ISU. His teams have finished 2nd, 3rd and 3rd in the MVC regular season standings. 2 of his first 3 years he was in the MVC Championship game.

His first years at ISU, the Redbirds have finished with RPI's of 37, 47 and 76. And in those 3 years only 4 MVC teams TOTAL have had better RPI's.

Those are facts. You can try and dispute them if you want or try to spin them if you like. But they are what they are.

Sure I wish we would schedule tougher foes. Most ISU fans I know feel that way. But I don't think one can really argue Jank's results in his first 3 years in Normal.

As far as this year goes, ISU is very young and inexperienced. That's not excuse, it's a fact. ISU has the 23rd youngest team out of 346 D I's schools.

Well I did say that conference record probably goes a longer way towards an NIT birth than the non-conference record. And I'm not denying Jank has a good record. But my problem is all the creampuff teams they schedule. That does not help the overall Valley RPI, and that hurts his team by not preparing them for the more challanging Valley schedule. They made the NIT, but a soft schedule will not prepare a veteran team for the resume building games against the Valley elite, the type of games that can help a team earn a birth to the Big Dance.

Now I agree that this year's easy schedule will work well for a very young team. But what was their excuse the past three years when they had more experience?

[TheAsianSensation]

Judging by our results, the fluke looks like USC, not EIU. Hard to argue in BU's favor when you lose at home to a team as bad as Eastern.

I'd still say the EIU was the bigger fluke. This is still not a Thursday team, IMO.

[cpacmel]

Well I did say that conference record probably goes a longer way towards an NIT birth than the non-conference record.

I thought you said something like "I know that maybe their inflated win total did contribute to some NIT appearances"

And I'm not denying Jank has a good record. But my problem is all the creampuff teams they schedule. That does not help the overall Valley RPI, and that hurts his team by not preparing them for the more challanging Valley schedule.

Valley RPI? Conference RPI isn't even looked at the selection committee, so why do you think it's important? The 8th rated conference doesn't mean more bids for their teams than the 9th, 10th, 11th, etc. Teams get bids, not conferences.

And while we are debating things like RPI, you did read where only 4 total teams in the MVC have had better RPI's than ISU over the last 3 years, right?

They made the NIT, but a soft schedule will not prepare a veteran team for the resume building games against the Valley elite, the type of games that can help a team earn a birth to the Big Dance.

Now I agree that this year's easy schedule will work well for a very young team. But what was their excuse the past three years when they had more experience?

I don't remember the exact %'s but during Jank's first few seasons at ISU he lost over 50% of his scoring, each year. And coming into this season I think they lost like 60-70% scoring from last season.

So the last 3 years, the only schools that scheduled properly were UNI (the last 2 years) and Drake 3 years ago?

[shaunguth]

Mel throws some stats up there and you deduct that he thinks our schedue is tough. Do you really think any of us think our schedule is tough?

You mock us for playing too many cupcakes (which we do). I'd consider a cupcake a team with an RPI over 200. You've lost to 2 of them. We've lost to none.

BU fans should be happy; you're ahead of a team that beat you on your home court.

Here's the opinion of an unbiased third party that has nothing to do with Bradley or isu, published yesterday (12/25).....

http://tribstar.com/sports/x480665913/FROM-THE-PRESS-BOX-ISU-s-place-in-pecking-order-hasn-t-changed

With the nonconference portion of the MVC's season nearly over, here's how MVC teams stack up in comparison to preseason predictions.

5. Bradley (6-5) ??” The Braves are the one team that has an excuse for their mediocre showing. Bradley lost starters Taylor Brown and Sam Maniscalco for the season and have struggled without them.

Rising, falling or about the same as everyone thought? Injuries have Bradley falling, perhaps down into the play-in zone.


6. Illinois State (8-3) ??” The Redbirds??™ nonconference record is misleading, built thanks to an incredibly weak schedule, rated 311th overall. Illinois State has only played four teams in the RPI top 150, going 1-3. The Redbirds were annihilated at home by the one good team (UNLV) they played.

Rising, falling or about the same as everyone thought? Falling. There??™s no way a schedule that weak justifies anything else.

[BradleyBrave]

It's going to be an interesting year in the Valley for sure. From what I have seen so far WSU, UNI, and MSU seem to be a step ahead of everyone else. I have no idea what CU is going to be. I think they're too talented though to finish lower than 4th. After those 4, I think it's a crapshoot between 5th and 10th.

[45otseoj]

Here's the opinion of an unbiased third party that has nothing to do with Bradley or isu, published yesterday (12/25).....

http://tribstar.com/sports/x48066591...hasn-t-changed

If we aviod Thurday I'll be more than happy.

Jank has the best Valley record of any coach since he showed up, and he always finds a way to pull out big wins when we least expect them.

The threesome of Carmichael, Wilkins and Ekey has the chance to be something special for the next 3 seasons.

[BradleyBrave]

If we aviod Thurday I'll be more than happy.

Jank has the best Valley record of any coach since he showed up, and he always finds a way to pull out big wins when we least expect them.

The threesome of Carmichael, Wilkins and Ekey has the chance to be something special for the next 3 seasons.

I'd love to have Jank's Valley record, Valley finishes, Valley tourney performances, and NIT appearances since his arrival. Les would probably have a giant contract extension if he performed as well over the past 3 years. He'd certainly deserve one. Can you imagine BU finishing in the top 3 of the MVC over the past 3 years, making the MVC title game in two of those years, and going to 3 NIT's? BU would probably come close to selling out every home game with that kind of success.

[TheAsianSensation]

I'd love to have Jank's Valley record, Valley finishes, Valley tourney performances, and NIT appearances since his arrival. Les would probably have a giant contract extension if he performed as well over the past 3 years. He'd certainly deserve one. Can you imagine BU finishing in the top 3 of the MVC over the past 3 years, making the MVC title game in two of those years, and going to 3 NIT's? BU would probably come close to selling out every home game with that kind of success.

I'd love to have Jank's Valley record too, because that record combined with Bradley's traditional non-conference schedule would mean at-large bids in the NCAA tournament, not the NIT.

[BradleyBrave]

I'd love to have Jank's Valley record too, because that record combined with Bradley's traditional non-conference schedule would mean at-large bids in the NCAA tournament, not the NIT.

True.

But sadly, even NIT's would have been significant upgrades to how our seasons ended up.

[Bravesfan]

I thought you said something like "I know that maybe their inflated win total did contribute to some NIT appearances"




Valley RPI? Conference RPI isn't even looked at the selection committee, so why do you think it's important? The 8th rated conference doesn't mean more bids for their teams than the 9th, 10th, 11th, etc. Teams get bids, not conferences.

And while we are debating things like RPI, you did read where only 4 total teams in the MVC have had better RPI's than ISU over the last 3 years, right?





I don't remember the exact %'s but during Jank's first few seasons at ISU he lost over 50% of his scoring, each year. And coming into this season I think they lost like 60-70% scoring from last season.

So the last 3 years, the only schools that scheduled properly were UNI (the last 2 years) and Drake 3 years ago?

Let me address these points really quick. First, yes, I did say that wins against weak teams does contribute to an NIT bid. But it did not help them make the NCAA Tournament when ISU had very few if any opportunities to earn quality non-conference wins. It was even worse as they were a veteran team with a couple of pro prospects on it. Too many games against the lowest tier of Division I did not help showcase their talents as few people got to watch these games.

Next, while I agree ISU has had a better RPI than all but four teams over the last three years, so what? How many NCAA Tournament appearances did that translate to? ZERO! Again, because they had few if any opportunities for quality non-conference wins, and blew most of their games against the Valley elite on top of that. I don't even get your last point, but yes, I think every team has scheduled better over this period than ISU.

And most importantly, I do beg to differ with your assessment that conference RPI doesn't make a difference in multiple bids. It does. Yes, teams do earn bids, not conferences, but it stands to reason that conferences with higher RPI's rank high because they have several NCAA Tournament worthy teams. And while I do agree that conference ranked 7th or lower in the RPI aren't guaranteed multiple bids, I'd much rather take my chances with a higher RPI conference than a lower RPI conference, any year!

So unfortunately cpacmel, most of your arguments don't hold much water when trying to excuse the pathetic scheduling that ISU has shown in recent years, this year's young team notwithstanding.

[shaunguth]

BU would probably come close to selling out every home game with that kind of success.

Interesting that a much larger school does not come close to selling out every home game.

[theBUer]

Interesting that a much larger school does not come close to selling out every home game.

The devil is in the details. People here have said that BU counts tickets sold as part of attendance, while the other big school does not. I didn't catch the Detroit game, but I'd be surprised if all 7,781 were there.

[TheGuy]

And most importantly, I do beg to differ with your assessment that conference RPI doesn't make a difference in multiple bids. It does. Yes, teams do earn bids, not conferences, but it stands to reason that conferences with higher RPI's rank high because they have several NCAA Tournament worthy teams. And while I do agree that conference ranked 7th or lower in the RPI aren't guaranteed multiple bids, I'd much rather take my chances with a higher RPI conference than a lower RPI conference, any year!

So unfortunately cpacmel, most of your arguments don't hold much water when trying to excuse the pathetic scheduling that ISU has shown in recent years, this year's young team notwithstanding.

I think you missed his point. Although ISU has scheduled weak, his point was that ISU lost a significant % of their scoring every year Jank has been at ISU. I know most ISU fans would like a better schedule, but I imagine this is the main reason why he wasn't loading up on good teams (otherwise games like UNLV happen on a regular basis). Throwing your team to the wolves doesn't help make them any better, learn anything or prepare them for the valley. Obviously Jankovich miscalculated how good the team actually was the past couple of years and I am guessing he wishes ISU wasn't locked into that Basketball travelers tournament for 3 years in a row. You also have to look at the basketball culture at ISU before Jankovich arrived. The team was in the dumps and needed a serious pick me up. My guess is that scheduling weak non-con's may have been a part of a rebuilding plan. Him and the AD needed people to get interested in redbird basketball again after Porter Moser. Getting wins at home no matter how weak, was probably the best way to do it while trying to boost recruiting (who wants to play for a team that gets their butts handed to them every game? If that was true, low majors would be pulling in the best recruits). Either way, there is no excuse going forward (after this year) for ISU to schedule weak. Jankovich has had enough time to get guys that he wants to create a successful program. I will give him this year because the team is extremely young, but next year the schedule better improve since they will be one of the better teams in the valley.

I am kind of tired about hearing how everyone thinks ISU's scheduling is costing the valley bids. The whole conference RPI thing doesn't hold any water. Plain and simple, if you want your team to get into the NCAA tournament, then you need to win the games on your schedule and beat the teams that you should beat. If you get beat by a redbird team that scheduled poorly or has a significant loss that costs your team a NCAA bid, well too bad. Maybe your team (and I am talking about the entire valley) should take care of business and beat the teams you are supposed to beat. If you can't take care of ISU, then maybe you don't belong after all.

[TheAsianSensation]

I am kind of tired about hearing how everyone thinks ISU's scheduling is costing the valley bids. The whole conference RPI thing doesn't hold any water. Plain and simple, if you want your team to get into the NCAA tournament, then you need to win the games on your schedule and beat the teams that you should beat. If you get beat by a redbird team that scheduled poorly or has a significant loss that costs your team a NCAA bid, well too bad. Maybe your team (and I am talking about the entire valley) should take care of business and beat the teams you are supposed to beat. If you can't take care of ISU, then maybe you don't belong after all.

Here's the problem with that: The last couple of years, ISU was the 2nd or 3rd best Valley team. Traditionally, in basically every year prior to '08, wins over the 2nd or 3rd place Valley teams counted as quality wins. However, because ISU's RPI was shot because of their weak SoS, a win over ISU was not valued as much as it should have.

Just to use an example, last year, Wichita St. They split with ISU. When you split with the 3rd place Valley team, that's supposed to be a reasonable outcome, one that doesn't hurt the resume. However, since ISU's RPI and SoS were so bad, Wichita's loss to them slipped into "marginal loss" territory, while Wichita's win didn't end up being a quality win. Same thing with Creighton/Illinois St in '08.

The Valley doesn't offer many chances at quality wins anymore. ISU prevented themselves from becoming a quality win for any at-large contender that beat them, and when ISU did beat at-large contenders, they weren't able to count as "good losses". And that's a direct result of the poor SoS.

[TheGuy]

Here's the problem with that: The last couple of years, ISU was the 2nd or 3rd best Valley team. Traditionally, in basically every year prior to '08, wins over the 2nd or 3rd place Valley teams counted as quality wins. However, because ISU's RPI was shot because of their weak SoS, a win over ISU was not valued as much as it should have.

Just to use an example, last year, Wichita St. They split with ISU. When you split with the 3rd place Valley team, that's supposed to be a reasonable outcome, one that doesn't hurt the resume. However, since ISU's RPI and SoS were so bad, Wichita's loss to them slipped into "marginal loss" territory, while Wichita's win didn't end up being a quality win. Same thing with Creighton/Illinois St in '08.

The Valley doesn't offer many chances at quality wins anymore. ISU prevented themselves from becoming a quality win for any at-large contender that beat them, and when ISU did beat at-large contenders, they weren't able to count as "good losses". And that's a direct result of the poor SoS.

I get what your saying, but the problem with your argument is that RPI means nothing now as stated by the NCAA tourney committee last year. They said they don't even look at it anymore. Again, if ISU is not good enough to make the NCAA tourney and they are in 2nd or 3rd place, what does that say about the valley overall anyways? I get what your saying about having quality chances in conference, but again, if your team is going to make the NCAA tourney you are going to win the games that you need to, to get in. If the valley is to get multiple teams in, we need multiple teams at the top taking care of business all together. Those top teams can split in the valley, but its no good for any of them to lose to teams that they shouldn't. If they do, they don't deserve to be in. That is how it has always been. ISU's problem isn't so much the scheduling as they are not winning games they are "supposed" to in order to get a bid (we lost to drake 3 times that one year). Hence they are not deserving of a bid as it should be. Does scheduling harder give them a better chance of getting in? Sure, but they still need to win the games in order to prove that they belong. If ISU is winning enough games in conference (against teams that did well enough to deserve consideration) to be in 2nd/3rd place in the valley and not have a chance of getting in, then no one else is getting it done either meaning the valley is weak and only deserves 1 bid.

I think Elgin said it best about scheduling philosophy. If you are a valley coach and you know you are going to be one of the better teams in the valley that year, you need to schedule accordingly. When you are down, you should also schedule accordingly. You want the top teams to beat top teams in other conferences and you want the valleys lower teams to rack up wins against lower competition that they can beat. That is the recipe for multi-bids. That is why BU scheduled Duke this year. As I mentioned, Jank can be accused of not abiding by this when having better teams and some of that can be attributed to him not knowing what he has had the past couple of years because of the percieved dropoff in scoring % and also ISU being locked into the bball travelers tourney, but still, if your team is good enough to make it into the NCAA tourney, you will by winning all the games on your schedule that you need to in order to get in.