Jealous of other Exempt Tourneys for Valley Schools

[amckillip]

To compare Wichita to Bradley in that purview is laughable. I don't care that they may have had 1 or 2 random lower finishes. Consistently, they've been better.

Ok...sorry. 3 consecutive, but still random finishes. Which still should have been able to be sufficiently deduced from my original post.

Really, 3 consecutive lower finishes, versus 1 or 2 random? Hardly the same thing. To say that Wichita is consistently better over the last few is laughable, the exact OPPOSITE of what you're saying.

[BradleyJD]

I think Bradley needs to worry about winning the games on its schedule. The rest means nothing.

[squirrelgotdead]

Really, 3 consecutive lower finishes, versus 1 or 2 random? Hardly the same thing. To say that Wichita is consistently better over the last few is laughable, the exact OPPOSITE of what you're saying.

What I'm suggesting is that in the years prior, and now, for the foreseeable future, Wichita has been the exemplar of a winner, and will exhibit an ability to finish ahead of BU routinely. Those 3 years are outliers to any bystander looking at the bigger picture of the league situation, therefore, random. Which is precisely my point.

[saluki762]

Name recognition means a lot as well. SIU hasn't "deserved" the tourneys that they get into but nationally people recognize "The Saluki's" same goes for the "Shockers".

I don't want to take anything away from Bradley but if I were to take a guess, if you polled 100 people on the east or west coast more people would recognize either SIU or WSU more so than Bradley even though the last 3 years Bradley has been consistantly better. SIU fans do not travel exceptionally well but random television viewers will recognize the name better than most mid-majors, even in down years.

In the end these tournament come down to revenue and a recognizable name generates more of that.

[squirrelgotdead]

On the West Coast, maybe. But, believe it or not, BU is still a very recognizable name all over the East Coast from it's glory days in the 50's and 60's...though that is rapidly disappearing, it is still prominent enough that BU has some unique benefit in that regard.

[TheAsianSensation]

If I had to rank the Valley schools on name recognition as it currently stands:

1) Northern Iowa
2) Creighton
3) Wichita St
4) Southern Illinois
--tier--
5) The Drake
6) Bradley
7) Illinois St
8 )Missouri St
--tier--
9) Indiana St
are they still D-1?) Evansville


The sad thing is Bradley's marquee year (2006) they were overshadowed by Wichita St (had the same Sweet 16 and finished higher in conference) and George Mason (who overshadowed everything mid-major by the end). The year Drake was relevant, they were alone and didn't share any spotlight. Hence why people care slightly more about Drake (you should see ESPN pay much more attention to Drake in their preseason articles than they really deserved).

[squirrelgotdead]

Stop using records and MVC finishes. Those can only be used AGAINST BU. If BU is better in those areas, then only the 'eye-test' can be applied. Come on Da Coach, don't you know the rules???

You say everything is relative, but want to look at things in isolation. League finishes this decade:

2,8,5,6,8,5,4,5,4,5; avg. place 5.2
9,5,3,2,2,1,6,9,5,2; avg. place 4.4

Tell me which is consistently better, which has shown upward mobility not once, but twice, and who has shown an ability to contend for league crowns repeatedly. And then you can tell me what's random and what's not.

[saluki762]

On the West Coast, maybe. But, believe it or not, BU is still a very recognizable name all over the East Coast from it's glory days in the 50's and 60's...though that is rapidly disappearing, it is still prominent enough that BU has some unique benefit in that regard.

That may be true as I said I was completely guessing. That said however, ESPN is not going after the people that remember the 50's and 60's. I mean most of their viewers probably don't remember the 70's. Aside from recent success, SIU and WSU have unique mascots, Bradley doesn't, that helps the recognition value as well.

[squirrelgotdead]

The sad thing is Bradley's marquee year (2006) they were overshadowed by Wichita St (had the same Sweet 16 and finished higher in conference) and George Mason (who overshadowed everything mid-major by the end). The year Drake was relevant, they were alone and didn't share any spotlight. Hence why people care slightly more about Drake (you should see ESPN pay much more attention to Drake in their preseason articles than they really deserved).

For the record, I would tie BU with SIU at 4th this point, I think SIU's recognition is all but gone at this point.

Maybe, but Bradley did get significantly greater media exposure to the point of the Sweet 16. I know for a fact multiple press agencies were in and around town the week before the tournament started, and outfits in LA, NY have familiarity with BU over the years and gave them advanced and concurrent press. Not something the other mid party crashes got. But then after that weekend WSU and GMU got much more focus.

[TheAsianSensation]

For the record, I would tie BU with SIU at 4th this point, I think SIU's recognition is all but gone at this point.

Maybe, but Bradley did get significantly greater media exposure to the point of the Sweet 16. I know for a fact multiple press agencies were in and around town the week before the tournament started, and outfits in LA, NY have familiarity with BU over the years and gave them advanced and concurrent press. Not something the other mid party crashes got. But then after that weekend WSU and GMU got much more focus.

Fair points. I guess a top tier of CU, WSU, UNI and a second tier of SIU, The Drake, and BU is more appropriate. I'd still have BU 6th, but we're basically on the same tier as Drake and SIU. I still do think SIU gets lingering credit for their series of high finishes back when the Valley was multibid every year.

[thefish7]

TAS, where's The Drake coming into play? I have trouble separating them from UE and Indy St.

[amckillip]

You say everything is relative, but want to look at things in isolation. League finishes this decade:

2,8,5,6,8,5,4,5,4,5; avg. place 5.2
9,5,3,2,2,1,6,9,5,2; avg. place 4.4

Tell me which is consistently better, which has shown upward mobility not once, but twice, and who has shown an ability to contend for league crowns repeatedly. And then you can tell me what's random and what's not.

It is relative. You think ESPN cares where WSU finished in 2000? the last several years BU as been better. Yes, you can keep extending the time period until WSU looks better, but the fact of the bater is, for three years straight WSU was worse than BU, and finished second to last one of those years, something BU hasn't done at all this decade. Over the decade WSU is .8 places higher, less than one place! Over the last few years they are CONSIDERABLY lower. So, tell me how again it is laughable to compare them to BU? The only program that has consistently been better than BU the whole decade is CU, and recently UNI. Saying anyone else is tons better is just being frustrated, and not putting it in perspective.

[amckillip]

TAS, where's The Drake coming into play? I have trouble separating them from UE and Indy St.

The one valley championship and then quick exit in the NCAA's I guess??

[thefish7]

The one valley championship and then quick exit in the NCAA's I guess??

Yeah Drake for me is an example of random variation (kinda like ISU blue and Larry Bird). They've been in the MVC since like 1621 or something like that, and almost always been in the bottom half. I think I'd put Mo St in front of Drake...

[squirrelgotdead]

It is relative. You think ESPN cares where WSU finished in 2000? the last several years BU as been better. Yes, you can keep extending the time period until WSU looks better, but the fact of the bater is, for three years straight WSU was worse than BU, and finished second to last one of those years, something BU hasn't done at all this decade. Over the decade WSU is .8 places higher, less than one place! Over the last few years they are CONSIDERABLY lower. So, tell me how again it is laughable to compare them to BU? The only program that has consistently been better than BU the whole decade is CU, and recently UNI. Saying anyone else is tons better is just being frustrated, and not putting it in perspective.

In the interest of respectful discourse, please re-read my initial post in this thread, de-emphasize the harsh language that I may have carefully considered and chose to use to make an effective point, consider the above numbers that I've supplied range from 2001-2010, and tell me where I argued anything you are arguing in the above post.

I mentioned that when Wichita started their run in these events where they've gotten potentially better exposure (again, please note the carefully selected language) their situation was relevant.

Please also understand that these events are arranged many times at least 1.5 to 2 years in advance.

Finally, when Wichita is talking to the organizers of these events, they will compare themselves against league members using whatever criteria they can devise that makes them look better than other league members. So they will be selective. And they can easily argue anything I've posted WITH CREDIBILITY why they deserve the opportunities they've received. And they've been rewarded in kind.

The first step to improving the situation is recognizing it.