Moran flop or no?

[houstontxbrave]

Isn't one of the things officials look for in that situation is the lowering of the shoulder? DSE did that, and that's probably why the call was made.

Quite true, but is that reason enough to anticipate contact, hence making a call? DSE lowered his shoulder/ pushed out his left arm but contact did not cause Moran to go to the floor.

[wily coyote]

Isn't one of the things officials look for in that situation is the lowering of the shoulder? DSE did that, and that's probably why the call was made.

yes squirrel lowering the shoulder is certainly very obvious to an official and usually makes the call pretty easy.

[houstontxbrave]

yes squirrel lowering the shoulder is certainly very obvious to an official and usually makes the call pretty easy.

Wily, your always looking at everything with those black and white stripped eyes

But let me ask you if a player like DSE did put a shoulder down as he drove to the basket, is it acceptable to make the call simply based on his body action versus if the action even caused a foul to occur? Essentially anticipation of a foul because of a norm action that causes a foul?

[Dubl R 1]

Isn't one of the things officials look for in that situation is the lowering of the shoulder? DSE did that, and that's probably why the call was made.

First off, BU had plenty of chances to win this game, so Im not using this as an excuse, but that call was absolutely atrocious. Dont these refs get paid good money to use their so called expertise to decipher when someone flops or not? Moran was halfway to the ground before contact was even made. Not to mention, anybody who has ever played basketball at any level above grade school can attest that you dont just get flattened like that unless you are giving up 100+ pounds or you are flopping. I mean if you are really playing good D and being strong on the ball with your defense, no way u get bowled over like that unless you want to be. I just dont understand why these refs continually fall for it. The rule should be if the guy looks like he was shot in the face with a 12 guage, it was probably a flop.

Also, I swear, MVC refs are just waitin for Singh to set a ball screen, they can't wait to call a moving screen on him.

[Dubl R 1]

Also, when did it become acceptable for a point guard (Alleghebe sp?) to extend his off arm into the defenders chest at will. I mean, and review the tape if u disagree, but this guy does it almost EVERY time he drives inside the 3 point line, every time. This is legal? I don't understand that.

[BuBraves55]

The charge call was made by Mike Sanzere, the worst official in the League.

I believe you mean Tim Kurkjian, the worst official in the league.

http://statsheet.com/images/mcb/refs/mike-sanzere-large.jpg

http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/images/Graduation/Dec07/timk.jpg

[tornado]

Sanzere and Pollard are as bad as they come... not sure who Wymer is... I assume you didn't mean Welmer did you? (the tall balding ref that always pulls his pants up)... Because Welmer is really good...

according to the statistics on statsheet.com,
Steve Welmer is #2 in all of Division I basketball in number of fouls called...
but he did not do our game Tuesday -- it was Terry Wymer, Mike Sanzere, and Gerry Pollard.

Here's a pic of Wymer -


Pollard is ranked #5 among all refs, in both total fouls called and most fouls per game...and also is among the top 4 in technicals called...


Wymer is ranked #34 out of several hundred ranked - so he's in the upper percentiles...
...and Sanzere has cut way down and has done far fewer games this year (only 24 thus far) and is at about the average in fouls called.

[bradleybasketball]

FLOP.

I bet it would of went Bradley's way if they were playing at home.

[wily coyote]

Wily, your always looking at everything with those black and white stripped eyes

But let me ask you if a player like DSE did put a shoulder down as he drove to the basket, is it acceptable to make the call simply based on his body action versus if the action even caused a foul to occur? Essentially anticipation of a foul because of a norm action that causes a foul?

No Houston it is not acceptable to base it on body action. At their level anticipation should not happen. I did not see the game so I can't comment whether he took a flop or not. There is a rule seldom used but I have seen it, where it is a "T" to fake a flop and start falling before contact. Most of the time that is ignored and they play on. If Moran did start going down before contact shame on the guy who had the whistle. If the contact was caused by DSE lowering his shoulder and the contact knocked Moran down that now becomes an easy call. See I can be objective.

[thefish7]

I figure the dropping the shoulder only matters if the player does it when he intentionally initiates contact-- trying to post up or make room for himself. In my opinion a guy who slides in front of the player (in this case wildly dives) without having established any sort of position anywhere cannot really be "charged." Any more knowledgeable fans/refs care to comment. I thought this play was either a no-call or a blocking foul, but never a charge.

[Nacho]

according to the statistics on statsheet.com,
Steve Welmer is #2 in all of Division I basketball in number of fouls called...

Is this total fouls, or fouls per game? Because I remember ESPN or someone doing a large piece on Welmer and he has officiated more games in that last several years then any other official (except last year as he broke his leg early in the year)... this would account for TOTAL fouls called...

[houstontxbrave]

I figure the dropping the shoulder only matters if the player does it when he intentionally initiates contact-- trying to post up or make room for himself. In my opinion a guy who slides in front of the player (in this case wildly dives) without having established any sort of position anywhere cannot really be "charged." Any more knowledgeable fans/refs care to comment. I thought this play was either a no-call or a blocking foul, but never a charge.

That might be an even bigger point is that Moran never established defensive position. He was sliding with DSE as DSE drove from the left side of the court to the ft line. DSE made his move ie shoulder/extending arm while Moran was sliding.

I do believe a charge can be called if a player has established defensive position along and if contact was initiated by the offensive player. I dont even think Moran was sliding past or had closed off DSE with defensive positioning, I thought he was sliding with DSE.

Now I would think regardless of defender position if an offensive player initiates contact with lowering of the shoulder he caused the foul. DSE did lower a shoulder but that action did not cause Moran to fall to the ground. But even if it did, Moran was not infront of DSE and his position to even take a charge was questionable since his feet were still sliding and he was moving.

I truely believe Sanzier and others... the surfer haired guy, officiate the MVC much differently then they do when they do Big 12, Big 10 or other BCS conferences. No way either the tip or the charge are made anywhere other then the MVC. To many times soft plays turn into fouls.

[AZ BU Fan]

Also, when did it become acceptable for a point guard (Alleghebe sp?) to extend his off arm into the defenders chest at will. I mean, and review the tape if u disagree, but this guy does it almost EVERY time he drives inside the 3 point line, every time. This is legal? I don't understand that.

I think Sammy uses this same technique every now and then to get some space from his defender....

Whatever happened to the crackdown on defenders hand checking wing players? It seems this is a normal part of the game again.

Re officials just waiting to call a moving screen on SS, if you have that reputation, there will be more awareness by the officials. Several of SS moving screens are a result of BU's ballhandlers not driving their man into SS, they don't dribble the ball close enough to SS once he is set for screens to work. Sam ends up sliding over towards the BU guard as he is passing by.

Sam Singh should know better than to continue to do this, and BU's ballhandlers need to know how to better run their man into a screen.