10 questions surrounding the team this year

[MacabreMob]

I think the line that can be drawn in the sand over what puts a coach on the hot seat or not is SO situation specific. And today's environment has changed so much. What was acceptable 5-10-20 years ago is (maybe) not tolerated beyond a couple seasons. Perceptions and expectations are so varied (some want postseason every year; some want 100% graduation rates; some want perfect law-abiding citizens; etc).

But I hope things may be shifting a little, and things might become more stable over the next 10 years. Programs wanting a "quick fix" coach who would do "anything" to build a resume isn't gonna be accepted as much - and I will always be proven wrong by the greed and egos of some situations. The Information Age/Era is gonna expose too much. A "Lovable Loser" may not be the desired expectation, but more tolerance of losing (or lack of "success") might be seen as a time for a chance to build stability (and success) in a program.

[electricmayhem]

I think the line that can be drawn in the sand over what puts a coach on the hot seat or not is SO situation specific. And today's environment has changed so much. What was acceptable 5-10-20 years ago is (maybe) not tolerated beyond a couple seasons. Perceptions and expectations are so varied (some want postseason every year; some want 100% graduation rates; some want perfect law-abiding citizens; etc).

But I hope things may be shifting a little, and things might become more stable over the next 10 years. Programs wanting a "quick fix" coach who would do "anything" to build a resume isn't gonna be accepted as much - and I will always be proven wrong by the greed and egos of some situations. The Information Age/Era is gonna expose too much. A "Lovable Loser" may not be the desired expectation, but more tolerance of losing (or lack of "success") might be seen as a time for a chance to build stability (and success) in a program.

This says a lot, and I agree with it.

[AZ BU Fan]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I thought the purpose of playing college basketball is to win something. All of the other attributes given JL - popularity, clean program (mostly), graduation rates, program interest etc are all great, and well deserved, but at some point in time some folks would like BU to win something other than finish runner up in post season tournaments we haven't heard of before.

I look at Drake where Tom/Keeno Davis win the conference and tourney in year 5, and, UNI where Ben Jacobson wins the conference and tourney in year 3...Neither team has the fan/alumni support, stadium, or location advantage over BU, but have had more success than BU has had with JL.

I like JL and everything he has done so far for BU, but would like to see the team win something....wasn't that one of the big reasons Mo was let go after he had success earlier in his career at BU?

I suggest the line in the sand for JL and his days at BU will be if ISU (Bloomington-Normal) continues to have more success in the MVC season/tourney and NCAA/NIT appearances than BU in the next 2 years...

I am optimistic BU will be successful this year and next - however BU is not being mentioned at the top of the MVC for 2009-10 and don't know if that would change for 2010-11 if all the same players are back again. It would be nice to see more BU players showing up in preseason lists of top Valley players, recruits etc.

[electricmayhem]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I thought the purpose of playing college basketball is to win something. All of the other attributes given JL - popularity, clean program (mostly), graduation rates, program interest etc are all great, and well deserved, but at some point in time some folks would like BU to win something other than finish runner up in post season tournaments we haven't heard of before.

I look at Drake where Tom/Keeno Davis win the conference and tourney in year 5, and, UNI where Ben Jacobson wins the conference and tourney in year 3...Neither team has the fan/alumni support, stadium, or location advantage over BU, but have had more success than BU has had with JL.

I like JL and everything he has done so far for BU, but would like to see the team win something....wasn't that one of the big reasons Mo was let go after he had success earlier in his career at BU?

I suggest the line in the sand for JL and his days at BU will be if ISU (Bloomington-Normal) continues to have more success in the MVC season/tourney and NCAA/NIT appearances than BU in the next 2 years...

I am optimistic BU will be successful this year and next - however BU is not being mentioned at the top of the MVC for 2009-10 and don't know if that would change for 2010-11 if all the same players are back again. It would be nice to see more BU players showing up in preseason lists of top Valley players, recruits etc.

AZ -- your post is well-written, but I'll argue a few of your points.

Drake was at the top for one year, and so far they haven't been able to build off of that. And if memory serves me correctly, they got beat by Western Kentucky in the tournament. We haven't seen if UNI will stay at the top...

They did win something... a trip to the Sweet 16. Now it's time to build on that.

We can't compare ourselves to ISU... that's like Lovie coming in and saying his #1 priority was to beat the Packers. I've wanted him gone from day one just for saying that. It's ridiculous. Let's win games, and let ISU worry about ISU.

I'm not worried about BU players showing up on lists of top players... we have the best backcourt in the league, and if we get contributions from the post players, this team could be really good.

[tornado]

and no NCAA appearances.....

if NCAA appearances or NCAA wins are the criteria for putting an MVC coach on the hot seat, then it's gonna get crowded there...

--and how many Valley teams have made appearances since 2006 when BU made their last appearance? ( just four CU, SIU, DU, UNI and each has made a single appearance then none since)

--and how many MVC teams have won MVC games since BU won two in 2006? (just one, SIU)

..I look at Drake and, UNI ....had more success than BU has had with JL. .....

This is not easy to agree with and you will find a lot of doubters...
Drake stunk for most of the Davis era, and their Tom's overall record at Drake is 54-66 with some pretty lousy attendance years, and even Keno's only year there was a lot of smoke and mirrors.....they had one game and a quick exit in the NCAA.
Then Ben Jacobson in his 3 years - taking over a successful program with solid players in place is still without a post season win...and his 59 wins over that span is fewer than Jim Les' 64 wins, and EIGHT post-season wins and over the same span.
So I certainly don't agree that those guys have had more success.

[shaunguth]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I thought the purpose of playing college basketball is to win something. All of the other attributes given JL - popularity, clean program (mostly), graduation rates, program interest etc are all great, and well deserved, but at some point in time some folks would like BU to win something other than finish runner up in post season tournaments we haven't heard of before.

I believe a trip to the Sweet 16 should count as winning "something" since there are very few Valley teams that have accomplished that feat in the last seven years.

I look at Drake where Tom/Keeno Davis win the conference and tourney in year 5, and, UNI where Ben Jacobson wins the conference and tourney in year 3...Neither team has the fan/alumni support, stadium, or location advantage over BU, but have had more success than BU has had with JL.

I'll simply disagree.

I like JL and everything he has done so far for BU, but would like to see the team win something....wasn't that one of the big reasons Mo was let go after he had success earlier in his career at BU?

Again, see 2006. I'm pretty sure if you would ask anyone on the team/staff or involved with the program, they would tell you they won "something" that year.

I suggest the line in the sand for JL and his days at BU will be if ISU (Bloomington-Normal) continues to have more success in the MVC season/tourney and NCAA/NIT appearances than BU in the next 2 years...

I believe we would be in trouble if we simplify things to the point of comparing ourselves to one Valley team. Maybe we should start scheduling like them too? No thanks! If your goal is to "win something", tell me how isu has had more success winning the MVC season/tourney and not making any NCAA appearances since JL has been here.

I am optimistic BU will be successful this year and next - however BU is not being mentioned at the top of the MVC for 2009-10 and don't know if that would change for 2010-11 if all the same players are back again. It would be nice to see more BU players showing up in preseason lists of top Valley players, recruits etc.

I have personally never cared one bit for ANY of the preseason "picks" and "lists". The coaches in the Valley can't even "pick" it right! I'll wait and see the results on the floor. As someone once said....."That's why they play the game."

[basketball nut]

I have personally never cared one bit for ANY of the preseason "picks" and "lists". The coaches in the Valley can't even "pick" it right! I'll wait and see the results on the floor. As someone once said....."That's why they play the game."

Couldn't agree more. All you have to do is look at these "so called experts" and how many picks they get right each year. DU is a prime example as they were picked for last place and had no one listed as a pre season all conference player and where was Iowa State picked last year and look what they did. Anyone remember JC being picked A/C pre season but he made it. In fact I beleive only 1 or 2 pre-season selections made it in the end that year.

As for winning all of us want to win but so do all of the other teams and if they were not bringing in good players, also, the coach wouldn't stay there. Yes we have brought in some very good players but so have most of the other Valley teams and that makes it hard to move up. All we can ask of JL is to get the best players he can and to get them to give 100% everytime out and to come prepared. If we do that we will usually get more W's then L's at the end of the year and if are "LUCKY" we may get to the NCAA tourn. which is more politics and less about quality, but that is a completely different subject.

[AZ BU Fan]

I sincerely hope BU and JL have much success in the next couple of years, and that the run in the NCAA in 2006 does not turn out to be the only success BU has during JL's tenure...

When does the BU 06 NCAA Sweet 16 accomplishment "get out of jail free card" expire vis a vis a desire to see someone lead BU back to the top of the MVC and win a conference/tourney title(s)?

Why shouldn't BU fans get frustrated seeing Drake and UNI have success in the MVC with new coaches/programs and not BU...Other than

Looking at all the stats people point out re wins, post season wins, etc over JL 7 years vs other MVC schools ring hollow to me vs no conference titles, no MVC tournament titles and a high water mark of 4th in the conference in 7 years.

The NCAA 06 success starts to have the same feeling as the 80's-90's BU national accomplishments - nice but not relevant to today....particularly if JL/BU don't have more success in the next 2 years...

You can say all the pre season predictions on team and player success don't mean anything, but I would sure like to see BU and its recruits/players/ coaches cited by their peers/media as the best going into a season and then expect them to succeed - wouldn't you? Sure beats low/no recognition and hoping for a miracle.

BU and its fans should rachet up their expectations of BU BB -

Can't wait for the season to start and see if BU can get back to the top.

[Out of Balance]

The line could be whenever JL does something JG does not like....

As long as JL keeps her on his women to buy gifts for list, as he indicated she was on the Brazil trip, he'll be all right Maybe

[shaunguth]

I sincerely hope BU and JL have much success in the next couple of years, and that the run in the NCAA in 2006 does not turn out to be the only success BU has during JL's tenure...

When does the BU 06 NCAA Sweet 16 accomplishment "get out of jail free card" expire vis a vis a desire to see someone lead BU back to the top of the MVC and win a conference/tourney title(s)?

Why shouldn't BU fans get frustrated seeing Drake and UNI have success in the MVC with new coaches/programs and not BU...Other than

Looking at all the stats people point out re wins, post season wins, etc over JL 7 years vs other MVC schools ring hollow to me vs no conference titles, no MVC tournament titles and a high water mark of 4th in the conference in 7 years.

The NCAA 06 success starts to have the same feeling as the 80's-90's BU national accomplishments - nice but not relevant to today....particularly if JL/BU don't have more success in the next 2 years...

You can say all the pre season predictions on team and player success don't mean anything, but I would sure like to see BU and its recruits/players/ coaches cited by their peers/media as the best going into a season and then expect them to succeed - wouldn't you? Sure beats low/no recognition and hoping for a miracle.

BU and its fans should rachet up their expectations of BU BB -

Can't wait for the season to start and see if BU can get back to the top.

Why should the Sweet 16 "expire"? Is that not a great success? I guess if we won the Valley and/or Valley tournament three years ago, that would not count either?

I'm not frustrated seeing Drake win the conference because they managed to finish 8th the very next year and are picked by some of the so-called "experts" to finish 8th again this year! I really don't think that's the kind of "success" we should aim for as a program. As for UNI, I don't believe they've played a game yet this season so we'll see how they follow up on their successful season.

Of course the expectations should always be high, but to say JL's days at BU should be based on another Valley school that hasn't won the conference/tournament and has failed to even make the NCAA tournament is more than a little ridiculous in my opinion.

[lefty]

[quote=tornado;140707]if NCAA appearances or NCAA wins are the criteria for putting an MVC coach on the hot seat, then it's gonna get crowded there...

C'mon T...you only quoted me halfway...I said no NCAA and no better than 4th in the Valley

JL does fine....I'm wondering where the line is....that's all. Are we capable of doing better? I don't know. If we do this the next 3 years...20 wins,no NCAA and no better than 4th place finish in the Valley...is that acceptable?

[squirrelgotdead]

Why should the Sweet 16 "expire"? Is that not a great success? I guess if we won the Valley and/or Valley tournament three years ago, that would not count either?.

Nobody says the Sweet 16 should expire. The question is when does the benefit from that expire.

If there were other accomplishments to go along with that NCAA run, then it would be less of an issue. But to date it is the only tangible accomplishment with JL as coach.

Sure there are big wins, nice runs, and other shiny things like postseason berths.

After basically building his program from scratch, JL built a Sweet 16 team that underachieved (granted, shorthanded due to suspensions) most of the regular season and overachieved in the postseason.

It was the byproduct of building towards that. That should also be an indicator of direction. You also expect to see some sort of benefit or boost from the Sweet 16 run. Since most of the recruiting for that season was already done, you have to apply a five-year window to see what that appearance bought you.

The yearly successes have been in steady decline since 2006. This is year 4 in that 5 year window.

[BUFAN]

I believe a trip to the Sweet 16 should count as winning "something" since there are very few Valley teams that have accomplished that feat in the last seven years.



I'll simply disagree.



Again, see 2006. I'm pretty sure if you would ask anyone on the team/staff or involved with the program, they would tell you they won "something" that year.



I believe we would be in trouble if we simplify things to the point of comparing ourselves to one Valley team. Maybe we should start scheduling like them too? No thanks! If your goal is to "win something", tell me how isu has had more success winning the MVC season/tourney and not making any NCAA appearances since JL has been here.



I have personally never cared one bit for ANY of the preseason "picks" and "lists". The coaches in the Valley can't even "pick" it right! I'll wait and see the results on the floor. As someone once said....."That's why they play the game."

If one sweet 16 appearence in my coaching tenior was all I had to crow about I would not crow. If BU had not paid for home games against less than steller foes the BU 20 game win streak would have ended at 2. I don't see it being extended this year though, hope i'm wrong...

[shaunguth]

Nobody says the Sweet 16 should expire. The question is when does the benefit from that expire.

If there were other accomplishments to go along with that NCAA run, then it would be less of an issue. But to date it is the only tangible accomplishment with JL as coach.

Sure there are big wins, nice runs, and other shiny things like postseason berths.

After basically building his program from scratch, JL built a Sweet 16 team that underachieved (granted, shorthanded due to suspensions) most of the regular season and overachieved in the postseason.

It was the byproduct of building towards that. That should also be an indicator of direction. You also expect to see some sort of benefit or boost from the Sweet 16 run. Since most of the recruiting for that season was already done, you have to apply a five-year window to see what that appearance bought you.

The yearly successes have been in steady decline since 2006. This is year 4 in that 5 year window.

Wouldn't this be year 3 if most of the recruiting was already done for 2006-2007? So we've had two full seasons of post-Sweet 16 recruiting.

I just don't understand how someone can define success as winning the Valley season/tournament and then go on to say JL's days are somehow dependent on another Valley school that has done neither of those things AND hasn't even made an NCAA appearance in that same amount of time, not to mention getting to the Sweet 16.

Again, I guess JL would be a "success" if he managed to win the Valley one year and follow it up by finishing 8th and being picked to finish 8th the year after that? After all, he would have won the conference!

Also, when you get to the Sweet 16, your successes after that are bound to decline! Are we now expecting JL to take BU to the Elite 8, Final 4, and National Championship in the immediate years following 2006? After all, anything else would be a "decline".

[shaunguth]

If one sweet 16 appearence in my coaching tenior was all I had to crow about I would not crow.

OK......so just how many Valley coaches have taken their team to the Sweet 16 in their first four years of coaching? By that measure, no Valley coach has done anything to "crow about". I'm not sure how any of them keep their jobs at this rate.