Will Egolf

[Da Coach]

Bill Walker just tore his ACL and is out this season, but he will try to come back and excel. That is like saying "guys like Will Egolf..."

No- Bill Walker tore his ACL 7 games into his freshman season in college (Kansas State) in january, 2007. And that was his second ACL tear.

See 2nd section of this article-

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NCAA-Weekly-Performers,-2-14-08---Part-Two/

[bluedevils1]

No- Bill Walker tore his ACL 7 games into his freshman season in college (Kansas State) in january, 2007. And that was his second ACL tear.

See 2nd section of this article-
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...08---Part-Two/

Sorry, I got my info wrong. He came back stronger than ever his soph season of college then was drafted by the Wizards and ended up on the Celtics. So he was "never quite the same" because he was much better.

[RedbirdFan21]

In the NBA - Ron Harper, Jamal Crawford, Danny Manning, Bob Lanier, Bernard King, Amare Stoudemire, Nene Hilario, many more. In recent NCAA hoops - Leon Powe, DJ Strawberry, Carl Landry, David Teague, Marcelus Kemp, Curtis Sumpter, and Brandon Rush??? all came back even better. In the NFL, almost everyone comes back but at a reduced performance level (Willis McGahee might be an exception). It seems like it is more common for basketball players to come back from this injury.

Well said sir... touche on that post!!!!!

[BU RICK]

Nice job trying to play "gotcha" but I am right on this one...
I am consistent in what I have said all along...that ACL injuries will virtually always leave the player at less than 100% but he could get close.
Sadly, many never even get close....

I challenged either you or someone to find a top caliber athlete who ever got back to where he was or who became "All Star" caliber after ACL repair.
guys like Bill Walker, Brandon Rush, Bradley's Eric Roberson...are all examples of players who were never quite the same....good players
but still off a notch from pre-surgery.
(Men's sports....as there are also a few more in women's sports)....
it is possible you might find a rare one, maybe a borderline one, but it will be very hard.
Considering how many athletes go through it, it is pretty hard to deny that it knocks the player down a notch.

Many thought Will was a few notches below expectations at the start of the season, not me, he can be 5 notches above fans expectations after this.

I had knee surgery many years ago and its always been my strongest knee since then. Hundreds of 5 and 10K's.

A little off topic but something to think about. What are we doing with our players over the summer? I personally think they are being pushed too hard. When you're young and athletic, it only takes a few weeks to get in shape.

[romar]

I had knee surgery many years ago and its always been my strongest knee since then. Hundreds of 5 and 10K's.

I had the exact same result from my ACL replacement surgery and I play alot of basketball & softball (not much of a runner). I could still run just as fast and jump just as high & my non-surgical knee is the one that consistently gives me fits.

Who's to say what 100% is anyway - it's a nebulous concept at best. I feel that Robeson came back from 2 ACL's at 100%, someone else may feel different. An ACL surgery or two sure didn't hamper Candace Parker. This is a silly argument because recovery depends much on the quality of the surgery and rehab along with the individual gaining trust that the knee is once again solid. I'm not sure about you, BU RICK, but it took me quite a while to feel secure the knee was ok & to toss aside that bulky & annoying knee brace. I know in playing b-ball my opponents were glad when it was gone - I scratched up more than a couple of their legs with it.

[tornado]

Sorry, I got my info wrong. He came back stronger than ever his soph season of college then was drafted by the Wizards and ended up on the Celtics. So he was "never quite the same" because he was much better.

Look, all I ever said was that it's very difficult to come back 100% from ACL surgery....it never ceases to amaze me when I make a statement like this, someone digs out one possible example from 1989 and claims they have proved me wrong!!
(like the time I said I couldn't recall a mid-major team that was led by mostly freshmen and some guy came up with Michigan, Chris Webber, and the "Fab Four"...
too bad Michigan isn't a midmajor and that was nearly two decades ago, thus more proving it's scarce not common.

anyway......Re: Bill Walker
certainly many would refute this as Bill Walker was a 5-Star recruit and ranked as the #7 rated player in the entire nation
in his senior year of high school..........

http://rutgers.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?ra_key=1611

Some had him as high as #2 rated but most sites had him in the top 5 or so.

He ended up being a good college player but nowhere near what a 5-Star rating and Top 5-10 ranking would have indicated.
Remember, many of the top 10 kids used to go right to the NBA but now after a year of college like Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, they are still lottery picks.

In fact, in that ranking I gave a link to above, every other one of the Top 10 in that ranking and even in the top 15 either went in the lottery, or in the 1st Rd. or in the very early 2nd Rd.

BUT---Bill Walker went with pick 47...late in the 2nd round...
so are the NBA people just stupid or is their assessment that his stock had fallen significantly after he returned from the ACL surgery.
I think it is obvious the fact is that he wasn't the same player as he was before he had the surgery and was ranked as top 5-10 in the nation.
Similarly, of all those guys who are in the NBA...most are having an impact, but Bill Walker sure isn't --- he's been sent to the NBA Development league!!



But my challenge still stands...and you seem unwilling to try to take it on...
Certainly Bill Walker doesn't fit the bill as he isn't even playing in the NBA....
find and name a player in virtually any men's sport who was an All Star, a POY, or at the TOP of his game he had ACL surgery.
you might be able to, but I haven't.....
It's even rare in the women's game even though the male's game uses so much power, strength, and quick lateral moves and cuts, that women don't perform so much.

[meth]

The inside of the knee never quite feels right again after surgery.

[BradleyBrave]

What about Candace Parker? She tore her ACL, and she is still dunking, still dominating.

[bluedevils1]

Look, all I ever said was that it's very difficult to come back 100% from ACL surgery....it never ceases to amaze me when I make a statement like this, someone digs out one possible example from 1989 and claims they have proved me wrong!!
(like the time I said I couldn't recall a mid-major team that was led by mostly freshmen and some guy came up with Michigan, Chris Webber, and the "Fab Four"...
too bad Michigan isn't a midmajor and that was nearly two decades ago, thus more proving it's scarce not common.

anyway......Re: Bill Walker
certainly many would refute this as Bill Walker was a 5-Star recruit and ranked as the #7 rated player in the entire nation
in his senior year of high school..........

http://rutgers.rivals.com/viewrank.asp?ra_key=1611

Some had him as high as #2 rated but most sites had him in the top 5 or so.

He ended up being a good college player but nowhere near what a 5-Star rating and Top 5-10 ranking would have indicated.
Remember, many of the top 10 kids used to go right to the NBA but now after a year of college like Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Eric Gordon, they are still lottery picks.

In fact, in that ranking I gave a link to above, every other one of the Top 10 in that ranking and even in the top 15 either went in the lottery, or in the 1st Rd. or in the very early 2nd Rd.

BUT---Bill Walker went with pick 47...late in the 2nd round...
so are the NBA people just stupid or is their assessment that his stock had fallen significantly after he returned from the ACL surgery.
I think it is obvious the fact is that he wasn't the same player as he was before he had the surgery and was ranked as top 5-10 in the nation.
Similarly, of all those guys who are in the NBA...most are having an impact, but Bill Walker sure isn't --- he's been sent to the NBA Development league!!



But my challenge still stands...and you seem unwilling to try to take it on...
Certainly Bill Walker doesn't fit the bioll as he isn't even playing in the NBA....
find and name a player in virtually any men's sport who was an All Star, a POY, or at the TOP of his sport after he had ACL surgery.
you might be able to, but I haven't.....
It's even rare in the women's game even though the men's game uses so much power, strength, and quick lateral moves and cuts, that women don't perform so much.

Ron Harper, Jamal Crawford, Danny Manning, Bob Lanier, Bernard King, Amare Stoudemire minus Jamal Crawford. And although you are definitely right about Bill Walker not doing well / being in the NBA, the reason was mainly a size issue and not performance issue - he is undersized at 6'6'' for a big guy but he is not strong as a small forward. I don't know if the ACL injury had that much to do with this, but he drastically improved after his freshman year in college and put up legit NBA numbers and that is why he even got drafted in the first place. Just because he is predicted as an amazing player out of high school means nothing. He should have stayed another year and worked on a few facets of his game. This is why he went to the NBDL. Even ranked as the top 5 high school seniors obviously doesn't mean a top 5 pick in the NBA if he could have gone and it doesn't mean he will exceed at the NBA level.

[Da Coach]

I don't know if it was intended, but you are only strengthening tornado's argument.
Most of the players you listed were never close to the same player after they returned from knee surgery.
Ron Harper was a star before his surgery, but became a good backup player who could no longer jump. From his bio on Wikipedia it says, "While with the Clippers Harper sustained a knee injury which robbed him of much of his speed and jumping ability....he reinvented himself as a defender and jump shooter"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Harper

Danny Manning was also a star, and would have been a HOF player in the NBA if not for his knee injuries. He recovered pretty well after his first surgery in 1989, but that was a much simpler arthroscopic surgery. He ended up with 2 more knee operations a few years later, and was never close to the same player. He bounced around with several teams as a backup before retiring early because of the knees.--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Manning

Bernard King- this is the easiest case to point to. King was the best player in the NBA, but lost much of his physical abilities after his knee surgery. Here is what his bio says--"
At the peak of his career, however, King suffered a devastating knee injury - a torn anterior cruciate ligament in his right knee, while planting his leg before jumping, against the then-Kansas City Kings in Kansas City, Missouri on March 23, 1985. It required major reconstruction, causing King to miss all of the 1985-86 season and denying him his once explosiveness to the basket....it was clear that King's explosiveness was diminished, and this prompted the New York Knicks to release him at the end of the 1987 season.... knee problems forced Bernard King into retirement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_King

Bob Lanier- Lanier initially injured his ACL in college. He recovered pretty well, but nonetheless was never able to jump after that, and always wore a brace. It lead to a lifetime of more knee trouble, and his career was cut short- he had 7 more knee operations, mostly because of cartilage damage.
Amare Stoudamire still has yet to prove he is the same player as he was before his knee surgery.

[tornado]

and even Candace Parker has said and observers note she isn't as mobile since her surgery, but she dominates just as much because she is good.
But to use Candace Parker to try to strengthen the argument that I CLEARLY said was about the MEN's game, again helps to show that there aren't many examples...
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread...ort#post106427

The techniques nowadays do allow most people to recover fully and regain full activity, but "most people" and are not top caliber athletes.
Even most athletes can recover fully enough to resume playing in their sport....that's not the point of this argument....
I agree they can come back and play, but will they be as good as they were before or as good as they would have been without the injury?
That's the question that is more subjective than objective....and you are entitled to your opinion, although you still haven't found an example of anyone who did.
Coming up with an example like Bob Lanier or Bernard King only supports my contention...as they were never the same after surgery, and even if they were
you had to go back decades to find such an example..

[bluedevils1]

and even Candace Parker has said and observers note she isn't as mobile since her surgery, but she dominates just as much because she is good.
But to use Candace Parker to try to strengthen the argument that I CLEARLY said was about the MEN's game, again helps to show that there aren't many examples...
http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread...ort#post106427

The techniques nowadays do allow most people to recover fully and regain full activity, but "most people" and are not top caliber athletes.
Even most athletes can recover fully enough to resume playing in their sport....that's not the point of this argument....
I agree they can come back and play, but will they be as good as they were before or as good as they would have been without the injury?
That's the question that is more subjective than objective....and you are entitled to your opinion, although you still haven't found an example of anyone who did.
Coming up with an example like Bob Lanier or Bernard King only supports my contention...as they were never the same after surgery, and even if they were
you had to go back decades to find such an example..

"(What type of production can we expect from Kansas State's Bill Walker, who is recovering from an ACL tear, in 2007-08? Recent history tells us just as good, if not better, than before his injury. Here's a look at how six top college players over the past couple of years fared in the season before or during their ACL tear, along with how they did in their first season back in action.
Player PPG before PPG After
Leon Powe, Cal 15.1 20.5
D.J. Strawberry, Maryland 7.1 10.3
Marcelus Kemp, Nevada 4.6 15.0
Carl Landry, Purdue 18.2 18.9
David Teague, Purdue 14.0 14.3
Curtis Sumpter, Villanova 15.3 17.4 "

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/...asp?CID=705043

Bill Walker 9.7 16.1

Recent, not decades, maybe not NBA all stars, but the point is that they got better. I can't think of many top athletes who have had the surgery in the last few years, so it is hard to say how their performance is affected. Jamal Crawford and Amare Stoudemire are both putting up all-star numbers this year after having the surgery.

[BradleyBrave]

and even Candace Parker has said and observers note she isn't as mobile since her surgery, but she dominates just as much because she is good.
But to use Candace Parker to try to strengthen the argument that I CLEARLY said was about the MEN's game, again helps to show that there aren't many examples...

http://bradleyfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=106427&highlight=any+men%27s+sport#post106427

The techniques nowadays do allow most people to recover fully and regain full activity, but "most people" and are not top caliber athletes.
Even most athletes can recover fully enough to resume playing in their sport....that's not the point of this argument....
I agree they can come back and play, but will they be as good as they were before or as good as they would have been without the injury?
That's the question that is more subjective than objective....and you are entitled to your opinion, although you still haven't found an example of anyone who did.
Coming up with an example like Bob Lanier or Bernard King only supports my contention...as they were never the same after surgery, and even if they were
you had to go back decades to find such an example..

Cool. Not pretending to be a doctor, just wondering. Candace seems like she's recovered quite well. I don't watch enough women's basketball to know if she's as mobile as she used to be.

[tornado]

maybe....who knows....
she was so good that even if she's lost a step or is off 5%, she's still the best player in her sport.

But as I had said elsewhere, if women actually try to make the cuts and maneuvers that men do at top speed, they tear their ACL's at a rate that is as high as 5-6 times as much as men do.

http://www.activexamerica.com/glucosamine/acl-tears.php

thus most women in their sports DON'T make those moves nor do they rely on those talents.
Thus women can use their size, strength, and finesse even after ACL surgery.

BUT--- even so....she is one lone example among hundreds of talented women who have torn their ACL's that were completely unable to make a comeback.
She is truly exceptional and by her rarity even support the arguement further.

[ph]

"(What type of production can we expect from Kansas State's Bill Walker, who is recovering from an ACL tear, in 2007-08? Recent history tells us just as good, if not better, than before his injury. Here's a look at how six top college players over the past couple of years fared in the season before or during their ACL tear, along with how they did in their first season back in action.
Player PPG before PPG After
Leon Powe, Cal 15.1 20.5
D.J. Strawberry, Maryland 7.1 10.3
Marcelus Kemp, Nevada 4.6 15.0
Carl Landry, Purdue 18.2 18.9
David Teague, Purdue 14.0 14.3
Curtis Sumpter, Villanova 15.3 17.4 "

http://collegebasketball.rivals.com/...asp?CID=705043

Bill Walker 9.7 16.1

Recent, not decades, maybe not NBA all stars, but the point is that they got better. I can't think of many top athletes who have had the surgery in the last few years, so it is hard to say how their performance is affected. Jamal Crawford and Amare Stoudemire are both putting up all-star numbers this year after having the surgery.

I am not sure if it is the same argument (ACL vs Tommy John surgery), but I have heard of sports doc (radio interview) complaining that parents, sadly, want them to do an unessary tommy john surgery on their son because the (parents) think the surgery will help their son increase their pitching speed. The doc says no, the surgery does not make the arm better, the rehab after the surgery makes the arm better (by evenly strengthing all arm muscles). Their kid would do better if the kid went on the rehab (better training) with no surgery. Then the parent seaks out another doc that eventually does the surgery....

In the same vein, players might get better after ACL because of better rehab/training perhaps on rehab those better players spent more time on better overall workouts and shooting drills than just agility?