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  #41  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:14 PM
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Da Coach there are other statistics that are not part of the picture of that nice chart you provided. I have a good friend who manages wealth for high end clients and the amount of money being transfered globally, around corporate affiliations and trusts for individuals would make your mind spin. The rich have ways to hide and move their income from Uncle Sam, that others cannot imagine. I'm not even going to go into corporate write offs that should be considered income. Now if we had a flat tax rate without the ability to write anything off, zero loop holes for corporate or individuals then I'd be happy, of course add election reform to this equation.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:23 PM
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Da Coach there are other statistics that are not part of the picture of that nice chart you provided. I have a good friend who manages wealth for high end clients and the amount of money being transfered globally, around corporate affiliations and trusts for individuals would make your mind spin. The rich have ways to hide and move their income from Uncle Sam, that others cannot imagine. I'm not even going to go into corporate write offs that should be considered income. Now if we had a flat tax rate without the ability to write anything off, zero loop holes for corporate or individuals then I'd be happy, of course add election reform to this equation.
Maybe AZ fan can confirm this, but I believe the great state of Arizona is heading in that direction.
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Old 03-27-2011, 07:23 PM
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Da Coach there are other statistics that are not part of the picture of that nice chart you provided. I have a good friend who manages wealth for high end clients and the amount of money being transfered globally, around corporate affiliations and trusts for individuals would make your mind spin. The rich have ways to hide and move their income from Uncle Sam, that others cannot imagine. I'm not even going to go into corporate write offs that should be considered income. Now if we had a flat tax rate without the ability to write anything off, zero loop holes for corporate or individuals then I'd be happy, of course add election reform to this equation.
Check out the special right now on 60 minutes. Explains all the loopholes companys (and very wealthy individuals) use to lower there US income and taxes.
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  #44  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:30 PM
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What's worrying is the 50% of the taxpayers, which is actually more than 50% of the population, who only pay 2.7% of the total tax bill, have the same voice as to what taxes they and others should pay, and, how much of the taxes collected they should get back in entitlements....This does not make for a stable democracy....
AZ you are kidding about having the same voice!The top 2% have a voice the rest of us just dream or believe we have one.
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  #45  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:32 PM
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Sorry, I agree with much you say, SFP, but the part about the rich not paying their share of the taxes is a totally false myth created by big-government liberals who want to take as much of their money as they can.

Here is the truth-
From TheTaxFoundation.com (a non-partisan, non-political organization)-
http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html


As can be seen-
The top 1% of all taxpayers pay 38% of all the income taxes.
The top 5% of all taxpayers (the uber rich) pay 58.7% of the income taxes (the majority)
And the top 10% of taxpayers pay a whopping 70% of all income taxes.
And the top 50% pay 97.3% of all income taxes....virtually all of it!

And the bottom half of all taxpayers pay a miniscule 2.7% of this country's income taxes.

It looks to me that the "uber rich" do pay the majority of income taxes in this country.
First off, The Tax Foundation is an anti-tax, pro business organization, so that is the last place that I would consult for a non biased opinion. However, for argument's sake, lets just accept that chart as the top 300,000 Americans enjoyed as much income as the bottom 150 million Americans. All this has to do with a alarming trend of a widening between the ultra rich and the middle class in this country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html

However, that is just one part of the puzzle that has been left out this post. The real indicator to look at is the real income of the top 1% of wage earners in this country as opposed to the middle class. This article from the New York Times states that 80% of the net income gains since 1980 went to the top 1% of the income distribution. These levels have not been seen since the Great Depression in the 1930's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/29/business/29tax.html

Also, studies from the Congressional Budget Office further illustrate the widening income gap that exists in the US.

"Instead, the wealthiest households reaped a sharply growing share of the nationís income, while the share going to middle- and lower-income households shrank (see Figure 3). Between 1979 and 2007:
The top 1 percentís share of the nationís total after-tax household income more than doubled, from 7.5 percent to 17.1 percent.
The share of income going to the middle three-fifths (or 60 percent) of households shrank from 51.1 percent to 43.5 percent.
The share going to the bottom fifth of households declined from 6.8 percent to 4.9 percent.
The share going to the bottom four-fifths (80 percent) of the population declined from 58 percent to 48 percent.
In 2007, the top 1 percent received a larger share of the nationís after-tax income than the middle 20 percent of the population. This represents a significant change from 1979, when the middle fifth received more than twice as much of the nationís income as the top 1 percent (16.5 percent versus 7.5 percent)."

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3220

IMO, as a progressive, we need to change our economic thinking about supply side economics. Something that David Stockman, former OMB director under Ronald Reagan, has stated.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/op...ewanted=1&_r=1
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  #46  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by amckillip View Post
Check out the special right now on 60 minutes. Explains all the loopholes companys (and very wealthy individuals) use to lower there US income and taxes.
So I guess Cat should be moving to Ireland or Zug, Switzerland?
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  #47  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:35 PM
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So I guess Cat should be moving to Ireland or Zug, Switzerland?
If I'm Cat's CEO? I am. Not saying it's right at all, but that's how the law is written.
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  #48  
Old 03-27-2011, 07:44 PM
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Ben - you might not like the taxfoundation for whatever reason - but their data matches the same data available on the IRS website.
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/07in05tr.xls

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxst...,00.html#_grp2

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  #49  
Old 03-27-2011, 08:28 PM
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Whatever happened to "you don't work you don't eat"?

Problem solved.
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  #50  
Old 03-27-2011, 08:35 PM
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Of course the top 1% are paying a larger percentage of the overall taxes. They are making an unprecedented amount more percent of the overall revenue then in the past.

I'm not against the hardworking American who has made a ton of money but against the unbalanced playing field that has been established the last 20+ years. Someone here show me statistics that shows that our middle class has not suffered over the last few decades.

I'm also against our present immigration policies.
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  #51  
Old 03-27-2011, 09:27 PM
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Of course the top 1% are paying a larger percentage of the overall taxes. They are making an unprecedented amount more percent of the overall revenue then in the past.

I'm not against the hardworking American who has made a ton of money but against the unbalanced playing field that has been established the last 20+ years. Someone here show me statistics that shows that our middle class has not suffered over the last few decades.

I'm also against our present immigration policies.
They have, but again, who is responsible for not only starting businesses in this country, but keeping people employed? The rich of course. And while I agree with some your points SFP, there is probably at least some legitimate concern on the part of Caterpillar that these excessively high income taxes will cause some long term damage to the company.

I know the truth usually lies in the middle sometimes, and there are ways companies can hide profits, but to raise taxes as rapidly as Quinn and his predecessors have cannot be good for even the most profitible of companies. And whether or not Caterpillar can find ways to evade the taxes, why take that chance now when the economy is still bad and people are trying to hang onto their jobs over there? The day Caterpillar leaves will be way too late to save people's jobs and the city of Peoria as well.
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Old 03-27-2011, 09:52 PM
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Did anyone else see 60 Minutes tonight? Their top segment (by Leslie Stahl) was about the flood of American businesses that incorporate overseas in countries with lower Corporate tax rates than the US to save on paying the exorbitant rates the US charges. Yes, the US Corporate tax rate is the highest in the world, so companies legally transfer corporate offices, and sometimes large segments of their companies or assets to foreign countires to avoid paying taxes.
It demonstrates what Ronald Reagan proved 30 years ago that if tax rates are lowered, it always results in more taxes being paid. Raising tax rates actually reduces taxes paid.
Link to 60 minutes story-
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...20046867.shtml
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  #53  
Old 03-27-2011, 09:56 PM
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In economics this is called the law of diminishing returns. It is a scientific law for a reason.
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  #54  
Old 03-27-2011, 10:10 PM
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I tend to stay away from political discussions.

That said, I find this thread really interesting. Hopefully it doesn't get closed or anything for going too far off topic.

So, though I'm not necessarily contributing anything to the spirited debate, I do like reading different people's point of view on the topic.

Thanks!
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Old 03-27-2011, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SFP View Post
Da Coach there are other statistics that are not part of the picture of that nice chart you provided. I have a good friend who manages wealth for high end clients and the amount of money being transfered globally, around corporate affiliations and trusts for individuals would make your mind spin. The rich have ways to hide and move their income from Uncle Sam, that others cannot imagine. I'm not even going to go into corporate write offs that should be considered income. Now if we had a flat tax rate without the ability to write anything off, zero loop holes for corporate or individuals then I'd be happy, of course add election reform to this equation.
Isn't that what Mike Huckabee wanted. Some form of a flat tax. I think it would be the way to go but ,that cost Huckabee a chance for Obama's job.
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Old 03-27-2011, 10:48 PM
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Jumping in late here on the thread, but the crux of this issue is not the uber wealthy or fortune 500 companies like Cat.

This issue is all about government spending.

Our government officials spend money like drunken sailors and then expect the successful businesses and individuals to bail them out. If those people or businesses ran their businesses or lives like the government spends money they'd be broke. And you can bet your sweet backside no one would bail them out.

Eventually the Cat's of the world will have had enough and get out of dodge. I'd much rather see the state of IL cut out some of the fat, ala State of Wisconsin, make some tough decisions, and curtain spending before socking it to the rest of us for being successful.

"You could say the government spends money like a bunch of drunken sailors, but that would be an insult to drunken sailors because they are spending their OWN money." - Ronald Reagan
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  #57  
Old 03-28-2011, 01:15 AM
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AZ you are kidding about having the same voice!The top 2% have a voice the rest of us just dream or believe we have one.
There isn't a politician alive who will limit entitlements/gov wealth transfer to balance a budget when over half of the voting population is receiving Federal benefits and/or isn't paying taxes.

If I understand it correctly, Federal Tax income has increased every year prior to the current depression, even with the Republican tax cuts. Unfortunately, Gov spending has far far exceeded the increase in tax income.

One of the issues with the tax cuts, personal and corporate, was to reign in Fed spending, and, to transfer gov programs back to the States to fund. I think the rationale was people in State/Local elections would be more attune to what they were willing to pay for in taxes, vs, at the Federal Level...where everyone thinks it is just a giant Federal Money tree that can be tapped anytime with more taxes, or, inflationary infusions of currency by the Fed (should get rid of this agency also)...Interestingly enough, when faced with huge State Tax increases to fund entitlement programs, free health care, unemployment, State Residents vote these tax increases down looking for someone else to pay the bill through the Federal Tax System...

God/Allah/Buddha/You Name It help us if the Feds push through a VAT tax, just makes the Federal Money Tree go on sterioids and spending through the roof. Politicians don't get re-elected by reducing spending/entitlements. With the balance of voters vs tax payers, the majority will always want to tax those making more than they do to pay for everything they want, but won't pay for.

I am all for eliminating waste/corruption in government and the spending programs they administer, and, the tsumani of tax lawyer gyrations to beat the tax system. I am also all for eliminating the double taxation on Corp profits and taxing the divdends they pay out. One last Constitutional Ammendment: Politicans can not exempt themselves from the legislation they pass. They are the new "Monarchy" in America.
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  #58  
Old 03-28-2011, 01:35 AM
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Isn't that what Mike Huckabee wanted. Some form of a flat tax. I think it would be the way to go but ,that cost Huckabee a chance for Obama's job.
Huckabee was a little to cozy with the religious right is what I believe cost him.

AZ - I agree with you but I also believe the top 2% and large business get their fair share of welfare in terms of tax breaks. It's the middle class holding the bag and continously getting squeezed. Imagine what a simplified tax code with zero loopholes could do. Tax lawyers and accountant agencies would lose their jobs, the US government could still lower taxes and collect as much revenue, everybody would be incentive to just make as much as possible.

How about eliminating income and business taxes and establish a consumption tax and letting everyone keep the first $50K they make as tax free.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:46 AM
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Da Coach there are other statistics that are not part of the picture of that nice chart you provided. I have a good friend who manages wealth for high end clients and the amount of money being transfered globally, around corporate affiliations and trusts for individuals would make your mind spin. The rich have ways to hide and move their income from Uncle Sam, that others cannot imagine. I'm not even going to go into corporate write offs that should be considered income. Now if we had a flat tax rate without the ability to write anything off, zero loop holes for corporate or individuals then I'd be happy, of course add election reform to this equation.
This is one of my favorite ideas. I'm disinclined towards big government and particularly special interest access to the process and the .gov's interest in my personal life. I understand the duty of paying taxes (though I view it more as payment for services rendered)... I'm happy to pay taxes, but I'm not happy to waste money collecting taxes. I believe tax code should be overwhelmingly simple and that the government should collect money in as few ways possible. Ideally they would have one very simple way to collect revenue (flat tax or consumption tax) that provides 100% of revenue collected from the citizenry (and corporations for that matter-- they just pass the burden to the consumer anyway). Get rid of the loopholes and the seemingly infinite streams that are taxed to drive system efficiency and quit wasting money collecting taxes.
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Old 03-28-2011, 08:49 AM
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Huckabee was a little to cozy with the religious right is what I believe cost him.

AZ - I agree with you but I also believe the top 2% and large business get their fair share of welfare in terms of tax breaks. It's the middle class holding the bag and continously getting squeezed. Imagine what a simplified tax code with zero loopholes could do. Tax lawyers and accountant agencies would lose their jobs, the US government could still lower taxes and collect as much revenue, everybody would be incentive to just make as much as possible.

How about eliminating income and business taxes and establish a consumption tax and letting everyone keep the first $50K they make as tax free.
Sounds like "Fair Tax" to me. Huckabee is a Fair Tax guy, I believe... Not sure all of the details of the Fair Tax proposal, but personally support a VAT structure over a straight Sales tax. Economists say the VAT is more efficient. That being said, the more important thing to me is the "single tax" concept.

And agree also that it was not Huckabee's tax ideas that cost him a chance at the election, it was all the religious stuff that turned a lot of people off.
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